First, I would like to say thank you for the time and effort that you are willing to put into creating for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in no way indication of how much I want fic for any given fandom or ship - I just have more (specific) ideas about some things than others. I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/ships.
I...apologize ahead of time for the wall of tags on some of these requests. H/C is like my favorite genre, and I think it shows...
First, thank you for creating for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in no way indication of how much I want fic for any given fandom; I would be absolutely delighted to receive a gift in any of the fandoms and for any of the relationships I asked for. I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/ships!
First, I would like to say thank you for the time and effort that you are willing to put into creating for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in do not indicate how much I want fic for any given fandom; I would be absolutely delighted to receive fic in any of the fandoms I asked for. I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/characters!
First, thank you for creating for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in no way indication of how much I want fic for any given fandom; I would be absolutely delighted to receive fic in any of the fandoms and for any of the relationsihps I asked for. I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/ships!
First, thank you for creating for me! In my sign-up I picked a bunch of tags that could be cool/fun/desired elements in fic (or art) and I didn't c/p them here to save time/space, but please also don't feel limited by those tags necessarily, as I also have a list of likes (below) that may or may not overlap with the chosen tags. I also have a bunch of thoughts/prompts about/for these ships which I put below, so if you want more ideas than just the tags/general likes there's a bunch here!
First, I would like to say thank you for the time and effort that you are willing to put into writing for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in no way indication of how much I want fic for any given fandom; I would be absolutely delighted to receive fic in any of the fandoms I asked for. I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/ships.
Several months ago I had posted about wanting to do a meta regarding two Theon & Robb scenes on the show: the first, the scene where they argue about calling the banners in the woods – the scene that gave us the (in)famous “not your duty, not your house” line – and the second, their last scene together, in which Theon presents the Pyke plan (and Robb in the end agrees). This got long and maybe more complicated than I had initially thought/intended, but here we are. .
What struck me initially was how visually similar these scenes are – albeit some of the parallels are anti-parallels/mirrors.
Theon and Robb are the only two people really “present” in the scene – in essence they’re alone. Bran rides around them in the first scene but he’s not part of their conversation at all and he fades more and more out of frame as their argument continues. (In the second scene, you also get the sense initially that there are soldiers/people milling around in the background though they fade out quickly, too.)
Both scenes are outside and in a forested area. (There’s a tent in the second scene but it’s fully open and they’re standing at the entrance, with the characters and the camera facing out.)
Robb and Theon spend both conversations standing/sitting shoulder-to-shoulder and turn to face each other over their shoulders.
The scenes are both filmed from behind/behind and over their shoulders. (To me it gives a bit of a sense of the audience sort of eavesdropping/peeping into these significant and private moments between them.
The very first shot of both conversations is from behind, with both of them facing outward:
Incidentally, this is also the position of the characters and camera during the first line of both conversations. Theon has the first line in both. (“When are you going to tell him?” / “A word, Your Grace?”)
The second “shot” and second line are Robb’s. (“Not now.” / “You don’t have to call me Your Grace when no one’s around.”) Then Theon with the response.
The first scene does have this kind of upward angle that the second doesn’t, but it switches to a closer shot of Theon a couple of lines later. And it’s still this from-behind-over-the-shoulder shot.
Then, of course, you have the inverse-parallels/mirrors. Robb is on the right in the first scene and on the left in the second. The first scene is in the morning/during the day while the second is during the evening/night. (With the second mirror being the significant one, IMO, as we’ll see later.)
It could be a coincidence. It looks pretty intentional to me, but you could say, after all there are only so many settings to work with here and only so many camera angles to use with two people having a conversation (not that Theon and Robb have too many in private – there’s only one other one). But once we start going into the content/non-visual elements, we get even more interesting similarities:
Aside from the fact that Theon starts both conversations, the first conversation is only one line longer – 10 instead of 9 (by “line” I mean here any segment where one character is speaking uninterrupted by the other character, even if he takes pauses).
Here are the two conversations side by side. Robb’s lines are in red; Theon’s – in blue. These are transcribed literally, without indicating pauses or emphasis in tone, etc.
The two conversations are also structured similarly, although each runs a unique course. Step one: Theon initiates a conversation that’s likely to be difficult. In the first scene we already know that, because clearly the situation created by Jaime and the attack on Ned is a difficult one. The second, it’s signaled by Theon’s formality, the use of Robb’s title. (And the fact that he downs his drink before going to talk to Robb to begin with.)
Step two: Robb deflects. In the first instance: “Not now” and “you’re talking about war” – i.e. this is above my paygrade, man. In the second: banter.
Step three: Theon gets back on track: “I’m talking about justice” / “the Lannisters will reject your terms.” Which Robb accepts in both cases but isn’t very willing to engage with. (“Only the Lord of Winterfell can call the banners” = what do you expect from me? / “of course they are” – acceptance without much of a plan moving forward.)
Four: Theon presses for action and presents a direct target – explains why the situation is untenable and singles out Jaime as a perpetrator that needs to be brought to heal before he can escape justice vs. presents the Pyke plan as a solution for the need to take KL.
Five: Robb objects – how do you expect me to march on Casterly Rock? / Those men fought against my father!
Six: Theon’s final appeal.
These scenes run in such exquisite parallel to each other than it feels nearly intentional. They feel like bookends. To wit it makes sense that the first is in the morning (in the scene directly before it, Hodor wakes Bran up from a dream) and the second in the evening. But what are they bookending? What is the point?
The first conversation here isn’t Theon and Robb’s very first scene together. These aren’t their only two scenes alone together (there’s also the scene after Robb tells Luwin to call the banners). Although it is their first scene in private (relatively)together, but that doesn’t seem significant enough. So what are they bookending?
The end.
The end of Theon and Robb’s relationship as they’d known it, but without either of them realizing it at first. That first conversation is the start of the end, and the last one is the end. Although neither the audience, nor maybe even Theon (and certainly not Robb) know it yet.
So, lets back up.
I’ve always struggled a little to trace the trajectory of the degradation of Robb and Theon’s relationship on the show – when you first start to try and analyze it, you end up with whiplash. In the books things are a little easier – both because they’re vaguer and they’re more linear.
In the books, we don’t have Robb or Theon’s POVs – to the extent we have Theon’s it’s only postfact, not during any time when they’re actually interacting. We see very few direct interaction between them and those are filtered through other characters, so we don’t see body language or small looks between them or anything else of the sort unless other characters feel it important to comment on, which they often don’t. Therefore, there’s a lot of room for speculation and individual readings of their relationship. We find out from Theon’s POV later that he felt a lot of affection for Robb, but to what extent that was reciprocated and/or to what extent they managed to channel that into an actual friendship is a little open ended.
Because of their lack of interaction, it’s not that hard to imagine a slow emotional distancing between them, even if you think they’re close in AGOT. The Bran incident happens – a clear escalation of “put away your sword, Greyjoy” (imperiously) – then, Robb continues to generally emotionally pull away from everyone, even his own mother. We never see Theon try to joke around with Robb again the way he does when they ride through Winter Town with Bran in AGOT. We find out from Theon that he and Robb never talked out the Bran Incident. Etcetera. It’s not that difficult to imagine an emotional distancing between them that then comes to its natural resolution when Theon has to make his choice on Pyke. Nor is there a specific moment of choice as there appears to be on the show – he just kind of slides into it between chapters.
The show is more difficult to parse. Theon and Robb still don’t have a lot of scenes together, but because it’s a visual medium, we don’t need other characters to tell us what they’re doing to see it. They’re always standing together, they’re always giving each other little looks. We see how Theon looks at Robb. (Ask me one day about how I’m pretty sure Alfie was lowkey playing unrequited love.) We get to see Theon tell Robb to call the banners. Theon’s book line re: standing by the Starks in war, said to Cat, is changed to a line said directly to Robb. Also, unlike in the books, where Robb is surrounded by many councilors and advisors even before going to war, Theon appears to be Robb’s only real confidant aside from his mother in the show. (E.g. he tells Luwin to call the banners, but never really consults him. That’s a conversation he has with Theon and apparently Theon alone.) We can tell there’s a close relationship there. (There is also the confirmation from Robb to Talisa later on.)
Worse, while the Bran incident still happens, and you can make the argument that Robb becomes entirely preoccupied with the war and we see him consulting far more with Cat than with Theon once they march… The show then throws us the curve ball of the “now and always” and oath swearing nonsense in the King in the North scene. I won’t go into the details of how much I hate this change (a lot) and why, but I’ll say that it always felt not just horribly OOC for Theon as he is in the books, but also inconsistent for Theon’s character arch within the show.
How does he go from that to burning the letter in S2? We think of Theon burning the letter to Robb as this big turning point, and in many ways it is. But as far as Theon & Robb are concerned, it’s really the finale. It’s the logical conclusion. Those cards were already down.
It’s emotionally confusing initially because they have so few interaction between the KITN scene and Theon’s drama on Pyke – really the only significant one is this conversation about the Pyke plan. So if we view their relationship as being on the upswing starting from after the Bran incident through the KITN scene and into Pyke, then Theon’s decision is disorienting. Not completely illogical – all the same issues he’s had re: the Starks still apply, but its more like a rug pull than a catharsis.
And yet, the structure and visuals of the letter burning scene feel more like a catharsis. A heartbreaking one, sure, but this shot feels like a logical ending to an arch, a final scene in a drama, intensified by the fact that the very next scene is Theon’s “baptism.” A rebirth symbolism, complete with Greyjoy banners flapping in the wind and triumphant music.
It also feels strange to have the Bran Incident and the “not your duty, not your house” and the general tension of their relationship in that section be so disjointed from this last part if we consider it as having been forgotten or overwritten by scenes like the KITN scene. Robb and Theon never talk about it. Unlike in the books, where Theon connects back to the Bran Incident within his POV, he never brings it up here with anyone or in any way. It makes little sense emotionally, unless those two scenes are an integral part of this arch (spoiler: they are).
I’d posit that the primary arch of Theon and Robb’s relationship on the show is a dying. The “not your duty, not your house” scene is an Inciting Incident and the true start of that decline, though we see little tensions and harbingers of it before. (The first time I watched S1 was before I read any of the books and my reactions to that “put your sword away” / “I take orders from your father not you” exchange was “wow…do these guys really dislike each other? So much tension! Will they be antagonists?”) In order to heighten the tragedy, we need to see them a little beforehand – happy at the feast, joking at the barber’s, Theon promising support to Robb in the godswood (this scene has its counterpart too!)… After the “not your duty, not your house” scene (and the immediately following Bran Incident as reinforcement), what follows is Theon’s desperate attempt to prove himself worthy of Robb’s reciprocity, of belonging with the Starks after all.
He wins a False Victory in the KITN scene by eliciting a public promise of brotherhood from Robb – though Robb delivers it flatly and distractedly, and must be prompted into it. Then Theon goes all in. He makes a formal oath. It’s an echo of his promise in the godswood from before: “if it come to [war], you know I’ll stand behind you.” A promise he’d made prior to the “not your duty, not your house scene.” Before the First Rejection. In the KITN scene he makes it again, but more formally, more publicly, with greater repercussions, after multiple smaller shows of loyalty and devotion. He’s gone all in – he’s given Robb everything he possibly ever could. But we all know that, narratively, after the False Victory comes the Darkest Hour.
The Pyke plan conversation is also a test. A test Robb fails, perhaps because he doesn’t understand that it’s a test. It’s the second, and final, rejection. It’s after this scene that Theon has all his answers. The rest is mere circumstances, a ticking time bomb. But for Robb and Theon this is the end.
Remember how we talked about the conversations in these two scenes running structurally in parallel? And the final “step”/section was what I called Theon’s last appeal?
In the first conversation it’s shorter and entirely unsuccessful. (Robb then has the final say, and it’s to remind Theon of his place as Not A Stark ™.) In the second, it’s longer, Theon has the last say of it, and from the next scene with Cat, we see that Robb has agreed, although we don’t actually see him voice his agreement to Theon. Interestingly enough, Theon makes two actual arguments in his first “final appeal” – 1) the Lannisters have already started the war and 2) it’s Robb’s duty to act for his father when Ned is unable to. He makes three arguments in the second, successful, appeal: 1) my people are your natural allies in wanting independence from the South, not your enemies, 2) my father will listen to me because I’m his son and 3) I’m not a Stark, but I was raised in your father’s ways and am tied to him just as you are.
Loosely, the first two arguments can be seen as symmetrical in a meta way too. The first in High Politics and strategy – the Lannister have started the war; the ironborn want independence from the South so an alliance makes sense. The second is about duty and family generally – Robb has a duty to represent his family; Theon’s father will listen to him because he’s Balon’s blood.
And the final accord – voiced by Robb in the first conversation and by Theon in the second? Is about the Starks. And about Theon’s place among them.
Theon makes no argument on this account in the first scene – it’s Robb who clearly shows him his place: “And it’s not your duty, because it’s not your House.” Read: you are not a Stark, so stay out of it. Theon stares at him in hurt shock. He hadn’t anticipated this at all. He loses the argument.
Theon forecloses this objection in the second conversation by making an argument out of it: “I’m not a Stark. I know that. But your father raised me to be an honorable man. We can avenge him together.” Read: I know my place. I know I’m not a Stark. But I can still be useful and helpful to you despite that. And Robb, his objections foreclosed, accepts.
So, what’s the test?
Theon pauses. Clearly and audibly. He starts with looking down at the ground, apparently unsure for a moment, and as he says “I’m not a Stark, I know that” he looks up at Robb. This is what you told me. Is it still true? Then he hesitates. He doesn’t want to make this third argument – he shouldn’t have to. But with no reassurance forthcoming, he plunges ahead. He wins by losing. He’s still not a Stark. And he still must argue/prove that that doesn’t matter. He must know his place and he must prove his usefulness despite it. Nothing has changed.
Can Robb be expected to jump in with a no, it’s ok in the three seconds that Theon gives him on the spot? Maybe not. But it’s never re-addressed. The last shot is Robb’s silent consideration and off-screen acceptance. Theon doesn’t “win” here because Robb’s changed his mind about Theon’s “status” vis-à-vis himself or his family. Theon’s just better prepared with a justification for why, despite being an “outsider,” this can still be his business.
It’s a status quo Robb is ok with. But Theon isn’t. Maybe he doesn’t fully realize it until he’s forced to make his choice on Pyke. But what was started in the morning in a conversation in the woods, comes full circle, and ends, in the evening in a conversation in the woods. They also physically switch places in these scenes, which seems random at first, and yet: The first time, Robb teaches Theon where he belongs; the second time – Theon takes Robb’s place, physically and in dialogue, showing he’s learned his lesson. (Hauntingly, brings to mind: “I trained him, he was a slow learner, but he learned.”) The
These scenes are visually and structurally bookends because they bookend the journey Theon takes from his wake-up call of being told, don’t be mistaken, you don’t belong, to accepting it. The part in between is his desperate fight to prove himself (and Robb) wrong. But because this is a tragedy, he fails. And having failed, he must accept it.
And when he goes to Pyke, he goes with that rejection complete, knowing he could “never be a Stark” – he’d given Robb everything, remember, and got the same answer as before – and not a priority to Robb. He could not possibly build his identity or his future on that. He had to do it somewhere else.
Theon wrote the letter, but by then, there was no real choice but to burn it.
I always had a suspicion that that scene with the knife would be after Aemond gets hurt because, damn, in Alicent’s place I might’ve snapped too. Like, even all the other baggage they’ve got aside, your kid just gets stabbed and permanently disabled by one of the multiple other kids who ganged up on him in a 4-on-1 fight (two of whom had already been involved in lowkey bullying him before), and your husband, your hurt child’s father, seems far more concerned what mean things your hurt child had said to “provoke” being stabbed. (The things happened to be mean but also true.) Then, the brat’s mother says youralready seriously injured child should be tortured until he confesses where he heard the mean-but-true things he said. And while that doesn’t happen, literally no one is punished for your child being beaten and stabbed for no fucking reason other than saying some mean things. I mean, come on…
So. Rhaenyra does something brash and kind of irresponsible (though understandable – she’s young, she wants to have fun, etc) which could have very serious consequences for her reputation, and ultimately be a political hazard.
Otto – is told about her actions and informs Viserys (in private) which, regardless of his self-interest, is a reasonable and astute thing to do, as this is a train the crown should get in front of. (Note that it’s unclear that Otto is specifically spying on Rhaenyra. More likely he’s spying on Daemon, given his sources. And anyway, he likely has informants in general who bring him information of interest.)
Rhaenyra – confronted by her (former?) friend/someone who seems concerned about her, lies and manipulates to get out of it, going so far as to invoke her mother’s memory. (Again, understandable that she’d want/need to defend herself from the consequences and she can’t trust that Alicent won’t tell Viserys.) When confronted by her father, manages to mostly get out of it without lying because he doesn’t ask, and instead of just taking that as a victory, emotionally manipulates her father into getting revenge on a man who hasn’t, in fact, done anything but his duty in this situation.
Viserys – has confirmation from Daemon that at least something untoward happened (and given the moon tea, clearly he doesn’t fully believe Alicent’s defense), so he knows the information Otto received wasn’t baseless and admits to Alicent that Rhaenyra has some fault Immediately allows his daughter to manipulate him into weird paranoia, blames Otto for his own desire for Alicent, lowkey accuses him of murdering Prince Balon (?????), and strips him of his office for………Telling him about compromising information that it behooves him to know that Viserys also knows is at least in significant part true?? Because Otto might be biased/have self-interests, even though Viserys just told his own heir that everyone at court is? And that he MIGHT do something to undermine Viserys/Rhaenyra, which at this point is based on……what, exactly? A teenager’s tantrum that she got caught doing something she shouldn’t have been?
I have no particularly warm feelings for Otto, but he just got screwed for nothing just because Viserys is an easily manipulated idiot, who apparently doesn’t consider his own children who aren’t Rhaenyra his own blood, but only ever someone else’s.
Oh, I think Robb was entirely aware of the situation, at least by the time AGOT starts – there’s no reason to believe he isn’t. Robb’s ludicrous amounts of privilege, youth/lack of experience, and, probably in part, personality make him a little naïve to some aspects of politics/diplomatic affairs, but he’s not stupid and, despite the Stark kids being fairly sheltered, he would have been educated and mentored as Ned’s heir and the future Lord of Winterfell. There’s no way he’s underinformed. Besides, it’s made very explicit in the conversation Cat and Robb have regarding sending Theon to the Islands as an envoy that Robb is fully aware of the situation. Nor is this new:
“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lordhe would someday be.
—AGOT, Bran I
Bran’s like seven? So he’s picking up on something that he’s not able to name concisely, but basically this is a rank-pull (or an attempted one, anyway). It’s a mild test balloon and precursor for the Bran Incident. We don’t really see Robb interact with anyone else of entirely equal rank to himself, with Joffrey being the closest, but I think it’s safe to say this is more akin to how Robb acts with those he instinctively feels to be his inferiors rather than his equals (which, if this were a true fosterage situation, Theon would certain be – a long-term guest, more than anything).
Also, “I ought to chainyouup in the yard” is an insult so tailor made to hurt and humiliate Theon given his situation specifically…
None of this is surprising, really, because the whole construct of Theon being a “ward” is propaganda and a polite fiction, which the Starks are invested in upholding. and do buy into to a fairly dangerous extent (where they start to make actual decisions and expectations built on this construct), but the buy-in is especially hypocritical because it’s partial. When Theon is expected to be loyal or trusting him would be advantageous, he’s a ward. When fourteen year old Robb wants to boss him around or it’s time to talk very practically about how Theon can be useful to Robb’s war plans, he’s a hostage. (Surprise, surprise, it comes back to bite them in the ass.)
I also don’t think Robb comes to care about Theon’s situation any more or less once he becomes Lord of Winterfell? Like I just don’t see any evidence that there was any change in trajectory here.
As to what Robb might have heard… Well, Maester Luwin gives us some idea:
“There is no shame in that. A lord must protect his smallfolk. Cruel places breed cruel peoples, Bran, remember that as you deal with these ironmen. Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late.”
—ACOK Bran VI
Charming, isn’t it? Especially given that Theon was a ten-year-old child when Lord Stark first had the chance to embark on this “gentling” process. *intense eyeroll* Granted, Robb probably didn’t get this exact speech. The Starks, or Ned personally, were invested in upholding the fiction of Theon being a ward, and it would be hard for them to do that while also entirely scaring their children away from him. But this is a maester talking, and Luwin comes off as a generally kind person too. We can only imagine how less educated and/or more meanspirited people may have felt, talked or behaved. Granted too, Theon outranks everyone in Winterfell except the Starks themselves (and that’s situational), and any visiting Lords would likely be lowkey aware of the Starks’ chosen narrative around Theon (their children could be a different matter, depending on age) – there would be a lot of people keeping their mouth shut best they could, at least around Theon. But microaggressions would still happen. People would still talk. People would still express views about the ironborn generally – if outside of Theon’s hearing, not necessarily outside of Robb’s.
As a counterweight, Theon and Robb apparently had some genuine conversations about Theon’s home and culture (at the least, Robb is under this impression, and he’s correct in his assessment of what the ironborn will do in response to the kingsmoot). So he maybe had some counterpoint information, or at least some depth. (I have a feeling that Theon likely leaned in to the stereotypes as a defense mechanism – glorifying the things he and his were derided for.)
As for the “Greyjoy” vs. “Theon” thing, the canon doesn’t really give us a consistent narrative here. I initially also thought the Robb uses Theon’s last name when he’s irritated and/or trying to pull rank but “Put away your sword, Greyjoy” and “Not where my brother can hear, Theon” are both reprimands (though the former is a more obvious rank pull). After Theon’s defection, too, Robb continues to more often than not simply call him “Theon.” Robb also calls Jon “Snow” (e.g. in their farewell scene) and Jon calls Robb “Stark.” So, I’m not really clear that canonically the last-name calling is meant to signify emotional distancing, necessarily. (Although, in the given fic I suppose it does sort of serve that function).
You bring up a curious point about the “chains” comments. I’m assuming the first instance you’re referring to is Robb during the Bran incident and the second is Ser Rodrick during the parlay saying, “Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dungeon wall.” (ACOK, Theon VI) At first blush, they’re said in pretty different context and with different intents too – Robb is alluding to Theon’s situation in an attempt to hurt and humiliate (maaaybe threaten, if you want to be uncharitable); Ser Rodrik is more venting about what should have happened, with no subtilty, rather than what could happen. But at the same time…despite it being a very lose parallel and at the risk of reading into small details too much….it is consistent wording, isn’t it? When it didn’t need to be, necessarily.
On an in-universe level, it’s an oblique echo of the kinds of things that might have been suggested about Theon (going back to the earlier part of this): the adults that might have whispered about how a savage ironborn hostage ought to be chained up, and teenage Robb, in a moment of anger and very poor judgement, aiming to hurt, subconsciously reaches for the things he’s heard the adults around him say to craft an insult.
On a more meta level, Robb’s oblique threat (whether meant as one or not) and Rodrik’s venting are echoes and book ends of what always hung over Theon’s head and what he had escaped (or tried to, anyway). Robb’s comment reminds Theon what can happen; Rodrik’s reinforces that this was always an option, though not acted upon, and now won’t be, because Theon has slipped away (barring further direct warfare). The Northerners had bought into their own propaganda, gotten comfortable with the double standard. He hadn’t. And how furious it makes them.
Guys. Seriously, the amount by which they aged her down is pretty negligible. It’s not stated explicitly, IIRC, how old she is in the show, but assuming she’s the same age as Rhaenyra (15ish in E1), she was only aged down by 3 years. Like, ok, sure in real world terms there’s some difference between an 18 yr old and 15 yr old marrying a man pushing 30, but this doesn’t seem to be the main/only issue for everyone, and in every other way the 3 years difference is functionally negligible. (And in any case, the 18/29 age gap is still significant, and Alicent is still a very young and, likely, inexperienced woman at that age who wouldn’t have had much more agency in this society than at 15-16.) Given than adulthood in Westeros occurs at 16…again, the aging-down is kind of *shrug*
You know who’s age got changed in an ACTUALLY significant way though? Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra who was about 9 when her father remarried and about 10 when Aegon was born. (Funny enough, she was close to the same age as Catelyn was at Edmure’s birth. Cat had also been raised as Hoster’s heir until then - he just didn’t make any formal announcements about it.)
So if you want to be happy/mad about someone’s age change, it should be hers, not Alicent’s. Because 9 and 15 is a big difference in a very functional way. And it affects a LOT of things. Even re: Alicent - a 15 year old and an 18 year old can be friends. It’s different if the age gap is closer to 10 years. But also things like…of course it sounds a lot more ridiculous to propose marriage between Rhaenyra and Aegon when their age gap is closer to 15-16 years than 10, instead of Viserys making a political blunder because he’s playing favorites with his children. Of course it make sense for an ailing Viserys to cling to his choice of heir, who is already an adult (vs a toddler), for practical reasons, and not just because he loves only one of his children way more than the others. As an older-teenager/in-universe adult, Rhaenyra can do badass #Girlboss moves like the confrontation with Daemon (which would not have really been a possibility in book canon).
Like regardless of whether you like or dislike the changes the show is making, I don’t really get the fixation on “aging Alicent down” when that’s not really the impactful age-change here.
People acting like we know for sure Robb’s motivations in marrying Jeyne or like there’s only one reasonable reading just make me roll my eyes. We see literally none of the events leading up to or directly after either their sexual encounter or the wedding. We never have Robb’s POV or even the POV of anyone who was there. In fact, the only person who’s POV we see any of this situation from is Robb’s own mother who adores him and will think the best of him even when he frustrates and upsets her. What we see of their relationship in the aftermath is a mixed bag. What we know of Robb as a person is also a mixed bag. Robb himself is contradictory on the point. Was it the “only honorable thing to do” or “I took her castle and she took my heart,” Robb? Which one is it, Robb?
Maybe it was all for honor. (Though, again, whose? Hers? Or his own, to the extent that he might think it more dishonorable to deflower a girl - whose home he’s invaded and currently occupies, having her and her family completely at his pleasure, creating a dangerous power-dynamic situation even if the sex itself was seemingly completely consensual - than to break off a betrothal.) Maybe he was so traumatized by the Ned-Cat-Jon situation at home he couldn’t stand the thought of fathering a bastard. Maybe he was madly in love/infatuated with her, and his bleating about honor was to save face in front of mommy and the boys. Or maybe he was in love but wouldn’t have married her if they hadn’t fallen into bed, but since they did, he couldn’t stand to then leave her (and their potential child) in such a situation that he felt responsible for. Realistically, a combination of several is most likely.
But no, people act like the only plausible thing to have happened is for Saint Robb to have been a Martyr for honor and a Perfectly Selfless Hero. Maybe he could have used some of that heroic martyrdom to ransom his sister(s) then. Please.
(Oh yes, and let’s not forget the disgusting conspiracy theory bog of The-Westerlings-Drugged-Him-With-Love-Potions because that’s totally the dub-cony elements in this situation that have any canonical support whatsoever. Give me a break.)
An interesting little thing I wanted to talk about… it’s widely accepted as canon that Catelyn both dislikes and distrusts Theon. Now, we can maybe make the argument that she doesn’t particularly like him – at least she seems to find him kind of obnoxious with all his smug smiles she doesn’t understand and grandiose posturing. But does she really distrust him?
I think this assumption comes from three passages, primarily. First of all, Theon’s own POV in Clash:
Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.
—ACOK, Theon I
Theon here is being a little bitter about all the Starks, save Robb, and while the overall trajectory of his feelings about them is likely genuine, Theon does tend to dramatize a bit. Cat, anyway, is generally a somewhat suspicious and distant person, especially to someone who she’s not particularly fond of. But also, we do have someone to compare Theon with here. Is there a person we know Cat sincerely dislikes and distrust? Yup. Jon. And I don’t think its controversial to say that she treats Jon a lot worse than we ever see her treat Theon.
Here’s the second passage that gets quoted in connection to this is from Cat’s own POV:
She studied Theon Greyjoy’s sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.
—ACOK, Catelyn I
She doesn’t like his smiling and she reads them as sly. Of course, Cat isn’t the only person to regard Theon’s joking and smiling as weird, unsettling, inappropriate or confusing. Does the fact that she reads them as sly or like he knows something secret indicate her being suspicious of him? In the absence of any other context, maybe.
But Cat never actually displays real distrust toward Theon. She has no objection to him being on Robb’s war councils. She has no objection to him being a messenger between Robb’s camp and the Blackfish’s outriders, nor the fact that he’s one of those outriders. She never seeks to exclude him from Robb’s inner circle. In fact, she does the exact opposite.
These are the members of her super-secret meeting about her suspicions regarding Bran’s attempted murder:
“Robb arrived before her food. Rodrik Cassel came with him, and her husband’s ward Theon Greyjoy, and lastly Hallis Mollen, a muscular guardsman with a square brown beard. He was the new captain of the guard, Robb said.”
—AGOT, Catelyn III
Maester Lewin will join them in a moment as well. So, her son, the maester, the captain of the guard, the master-at-arms/castellan…and Theon. Like if anyone is superfluous here, it’s Theon, but she has no objection to including him whatsoever, nor does her POV indicate for a moment that maybe he should be there.
Later, when Cat is telling Robb off for not giving the command of the host that’s going to war to free her husband, she offers the following possible candidates for command:
"No one?” she said. “Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart … you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice.”
—AGOT, Catelyn VIII
Theon’s not her first or even third choice, sure, but that’s clearly about experience and not trust, given that Theon is a nineteen year old lad whose never fought in a battle, not to mention led men into one, unlike all of these other seasoned lords.
But what about Pyke? That’s the third major passage that tends to be quote, Cat’s opposition to sending Theon to Pyke. You know, this one:
Catelyn ignored that. “I’ll say again, I would sooner you sent someone else to Pyke, and kept Theon close to you.”
“Who better to treat with Balon Greyjoy than his son?”
“Jason Mallister,” offered Catelyn. “Tytos Blackwood. Stevron Frey. Anyone… but not Theon.”
—ACOK, Catelyn I
That’s the part that’s usually quoted, but here’s the rest of that conversation:
Her son squatted beside Grey Wind, ruffling the wolf’s fur and incidentally avoiding her eyes. “Theon’s fought bravely for us. I told you how he saved Bran from those wildlings in the wolfswood. If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.”
“You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.”
“He’s been a hostage half his life.”
“For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.”
—ACOK, Catelyn I
The person Cat doesn’t trust, first and foremost, is Balon. Cat doesn’t think Theon’s a good choice to treat with Balon not because she’s expecting Theon to turn on them, but because she thinks he has more utility as a hostage. It may be that Cat senses the immense conflict of interest possibly looming here as well. She’s older and wiser than Robb, after all (even if he rarely deigns to actually listen to her). But she’s throwing out her best arguments and she never quite brings this up explicitly, and to the extent she does, it’s Balon and his political ambitions that she’s concerned about. Cat’s thought process is basically: Balon can’t be trusted to not have some crazy political aspirations and do god knows what > the best way to keep Balon in line is to have something hanging over him like the life of his son > any competent lord could negotiate a treaty > thus Theon is best kept close to keep him away from Balon’s possible plotting and as a bargaining chip to boot. Any distrust Cat has here is just a healthy understanding of how someone (any person, really, this isn’t Theon-specific) might be tempted to…you know…align with their own family in their plans. But that’s more subtextual, a “sense of discomfort” type of thing. The actual distrust is aimed at Balon. The argument isn’t “Theon isn’t trustworthy” it’s “Theon is more useful here.”
And, really, in a way, Cat here is just following Ned’s advice from back in AGOT:
When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. “Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.”
—AGOT, Eddard IV
Cat never shows any elevated distrust or suspicion toward Theon than she does toward anyone else who she’s not specifically close to, really. Even on the opposite, she displays a significant amount more trust than you’d expect of someone to have toward their hostage. Even after she gets news that Theon has “killed” Bran and Rickon, her reaction isn’t “I knew it!” it’s this:
“Bran and Rickon tried to escape, but were taken at a mill on the Acorn Water. Theon Greyjoy has mounted their heads on the walls of Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy, who ate at my table since he was a boy of ten.” I have said it, gods forgive me. I have said it and made it true.
—ACOK, Catelyn VII
It’s surprise, bewilderment, outrage of a sort, but it’s not vindication. She didn’t see this coming. The why is an expansive enough topic that it would properly deserve a post of its own. I’m not going to prove up this thesis in this post, but I’ll say that Cat is just another example of the shocking amount of entitlement that the Starks specifically and Northerners generally feel in regards to having Theon’s loyalty. And it’s probably why Theon doesn’t feel entirely trusted by them – it’s not real trust, born out of respect and/or affection, the notion to distrust him just doesn’t seem to fully enter their minds even when it’s a reasonable question to ask, because they feel so secure in the idea that Theon must be loyal to them, that they deserve that loyalty. But again, that’s a post for another day, I’ll just say that Cat is really not an exception.
I’ll close this with a little observation that’s a bit tangential but related. When Cat argues with Robb about legitimizing Jon, while it’s easy to side with Robb against her emotionally because her treatment and distrust of Jon are so unfair, she’s not actually wrong in what she says. And she’s asking Robb to not make the same mistake they all made – to put trust into loyalty that has been assumed for no good reason, ignoring all conflicts of interest for the sake of righteousness:
“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? … Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray… .”
—ASOS, Catelyn V
Robb is, as usual, not listening. Cat isn’t even talking about Jon to begin with. She’s talking about his sons. Who know one knows what they’d be like, and it would be insane to put blind trust in them and their theoretical goodness and family attachment. It’s Robb who starts talking about Jon. And Cat has a point here too, though Robb doesn’t want to hear it: you think Jon is not like Theon, but you also never thought Theon would do what he did. How blinded are you, Robb? By love? By righteousness?By how you believe things are supposed to be? No one thought Theon would turn. Not even Cat, who didn’t like his smiles and thought he made a better hostage than negotiator.
She’s always been unfair to Jon, of course. But can we blame her for being paranoid now, when she’s learned the hard way that assuming loyalty for theoretical, self-righteous reasons is folly?
It probably shouldn’t bother me this much, but it does irritate me when people say that Jeyne (Poole) isn’t highborn. Because she is! She’s of a noble house. She’s a lady. Yea, it’s a very small, poor (relatively) and politically insignificant noble house, very likely without lands at this point, but in the feudal class hierarchy, that still puts her theoretically miles above anyone from the smallfolk in ways of respect of consideration. At least, it’s supposed to…
And that’s actually the other thing - I think Jeyne’s fate and treatment in Dance (and before with LIttlefinger, but that was less public, at least) is particularly interesting because she’s not a commoner. By the theoretical laws of this society, as romanticized in all the chivalrous songs she and Sansa had idealized and loved as young girls, her treatment should be unacceptable just by virtue of her being a highborn lady. Common serving girls may be molested by young lords without much reproach because lol they don’t have any honor to begin with, right? (/sarcasm, obv.) But a noble maiden? That’s rather inappropriate and possibly imposes obligations of marriage on him, which he could be looked at negatively for forgoing.
But of course, no one really cares. The nobility have their own hierarchy, that was always obvious too, but in the end, it’s not even just about which Houses can afford more luxury or which Houses can get others to swear oaths to them. It’s even more cynical than that. No one will help even a noble girl out if she doesn’t have the money to buy their support or have enough political connections to compel it (which usually means that even if she doesn’t have money on her, someone out there who cares enough about helping her for whatever reason does - whether in the form of literal gold/coin or swords or whatever). Chivalry is a pipe dream, a delusion Sansa must rid herself of as well (even though some people in this world still aspire to it) - money and power are far more important in the end than the nobility of your blood.
Jeyne is of noble birth. And it really doesn’t help her at all.
First, I would like to say thank you for the time and effort that you are willing to put into writing for me! Length of fandom sections or the order the fandoms are in no way indication of how much I want fic for any given fandom; I would be ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED to receive fic in any of the fandoms I asked for. Optional details are optional, but if you're like me and like to have lots of info to work with, I've tried to provide some details on the sorts of things I like (and don't) and give prompts for each of my fandoms/ships.
(THEON MONTH | DAY 2: Personality Traits; DAY 5: Strengths)
I think it’s been discussed fairly at length at various points by Theon fans that Theon’s personality can be difficult to parse out, even long before he adds the layer of complexity via dissociation while in Ramsay’s clutches. Where do Theon’s defense mechanisms and trauma responses end and his core personality begin? Which and how many of those coping mechanisms are so hard baked into him that they’re basically his personality now, and to what extent?
They made a pitifully small assembly; the ironmen were few, the yard large. “The northmen will be on us before nightfall,” he told them. “Ser Rodrik Cassel and all the lords who have come to his call. I will not run from them. I took this castle and I mean to hold it, to live or die as Prince of Winterfell. But I will not command any man to die with me. If you leave now, before Ser Rodrik’s main force is upon us, there’s still a chance you may win free.” He unsheathed his longsword and drew a line in the dirt. “Those who would stay and fight, step forward.”
— ACOK, Theon VI
There are so many Theon quotes and moments I love! It would be impossible to choose just one or even a top three. So I decided to highlight this one, because it’s one of my favorites (especially because it’s such a bright spot in the horrifying bleakness of Theon’s downward mental health and moral spiral in Clash) and it’s also such an underrated moment no one really talks about.
In the show, Theon gets this rousing speech about fighting and dying gloriously and if he’d gotten to that moment in the books he might have made a similar speech to the men who were still with him. But they’re not there yet. There’s no host at his gates yet, though they know it’s coming, and Theon isn’t stupid. As much as he holds out some shred of hope, does everything he can to survive, he surely understands he’s critically outnumbered. He also knows that not only are the people of Winterfell (whom he also refuses to summarily execute when his lieutenants suggest it, mind) are against him, but his own men aren’t exactly inspired to follow him. Morale is low as hell. He runs a very high risk of being abandoned and leaving himself even more vulnerable that he already is.
And yet he still offers them an out.
He offers them a chance to leave, to live, and when they take him up on it?
"Go, then,“ Theon told them. "Run to my sister. She’ll give you all a warm welcome, I have no doubt.”
Maybe a bit petulant, but he doesn’t bother to really shame them. (Wex’s loyalty does that.) Nor is this a trick to root out traitors or anything. He’s just genuinely giving his men a chance if they want it. He feels hurt and abandoned, but he’s not even truly angry and he doesn’t want to force anyone to die for him. For all the posturing he does to Asha about how men should fight for him because he is their Prince, when it comes down to it, he doesn’t actually want that. Even in all the darkness, all the awful things he’s done, he still makes this bid for honor, for decency, because that’s far more at the core of who he is.
He knows they’re likely to die if they fight. He knows they very well may leave him if given half a chance.
Do you think Robb had anger management issues or was it because of all the stress he was under? I understand that before he was left in charge of Winterfell and before he was crowned king there was never any mention of such a case, what are your thoughts?
Well, certainly, any issues Robb had would have likely been exacerbated by the very stressful situation he found himself in at a very young age. Especially once things start to really fall apart for him. That said: 1) I don’t think any issues he does have come out of nowhere or are developed wholesale because of the war, and 2) I wouldn’t say that a lack of anger management is his problem.
Mind, Robb does have a temper and he does at times lash out in anger/frustration. Often, this is done at inappropriate targets or in an inappropriate way. But calling it anger management issues seems to imply that either he does this especially violently somehow or that he’s unable to control his response. My opinion on this is that neither of those are true. The first point is pretty self-evident, I’d say – Robb’s temper outbursts tend to be limited to verbal/emotional cruelty at their worst. As for the lack of control… I don’t think he’s incapable of controlling his anger, but rather that sometimes he simply doesn’t bother to.
Continuing this from last year… Put down the first sentence of every fic you wrote/posted this last year (2021).
“So, who do you think will lose their shit first and start throwing punches?”
“Ten sickles,” the innkeeper said in a deep, gravely voice.
Mercutio found Romeo with his face pressed against the chain-link fence at the back of the schoolyard, staring forlornly across the ash field exclusion zone that lay between the school and an old, abandoned factory, who’s chimneys and ragged pieces of ruined roof stuck up into the air like decrepit, ancient fingers, pointing in accusation at the sky.
Regulus understands now why Narcissa had hated the half-mourning she and her family had had to wear in the wake of Andromeda’s disownment ceremony.
My father is dead, Robb thinks for what feels like the hundredth time that day since they got the news from King’s Landing.
There’s summer snow in Robb’s hair, stark white against the dark, rusty read.
Asha’s hair blows in the wind, rough and slightly moist from the sea spray that just barely reaches them on the rocks.
Jeyne feels as if she’s never been to the sea until she goes to Pyke with Theon.
“At least she’s pretty. That’s already an improvement from the last one.”
“Sev?” Evan’s voice is quiet, almost gentle from across the room, but it only makes Severus flinch.
In his third year as a hostage at Winterfell, Theon begins to plot his escape.
Only a few months ago, Theon couldn’t have said if he’d ever get to see King’s Landing.
“I didn’t know where else to go.”
War is coming.
“I love seeing you smile.”
Tris knows it’s a bad idea to go.
Pansy hadn’t really expected the nightmares.
“I hope you’re happy,” he mumbles into the bear bottle he’s been nursing aimlessly for the past half-hour when he spots Sonya’s red hair sliding into the seat next to him.
It shouldn’t be this way, is all Benvolio can think.
“You lot are going to get me in trouble,” Dagmer grumbled even as he set up the wooden targets, plunging them deep into the sand.
Jeyne’s brother, Ser Raynald, is a handsome fellow, with dark hair and dark eyes.
It starts with peach ice cream.
He needed to pull himself together or he’d never be able to do this.
Lady Sansa’s letter came not a fortnight after Yara could say with any certainty that things were once more stable on the Islands. For some very loose and shaky values of stable.
“Tris?” Theon says one morning.
Romeo comes to pray, all soft dark curls and large doe eyes.
“Come to bed, Bert.”
Jesse sits on the edge of the roof, feet dangling off the side, a bit like he used to do when they were kids sneaking around and hiding their childish treasures among rusty pipes and chimneys, in old, abandoned attics.
Of all the goodbyes he said the day he left Pyke, Theon remembered Asha the most.
Robb shows up on the last day of exams with a bottle of cognac and a roguish smile, leaning against the doorframe of Theon’s office.
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