alley_skywalker | Entries tagged with character: robb stark

Several months ago I had posted about wanting to do a meta regarding two Theon & Robb scenes on the show: the first, the scene where they argue about calling the banners in the woods – the scene that gave us the (in)famous “not your duty, not your house” line – and the second, their last scene together, in which Theon presents the Pyke plan (and Robb in the end agrees). This got long and maybe more complicated than I had initially thought/intended, but here we are. .

What struck me initially was how visually similar these scenes are – albeit some of the parallels are anti-parallels/mirrors.

Theon and Robb are the only two people really “present” in the scene – in essence they’re alone. Bran rides around them in the first scene but he’s not part of their conversation at all and he fades more and more out of frame as their argument continues. (In the second scene, you also get the sense initially that there are soldiers/people milling around in the background though they fade out quickly, too.)
Both scenes are outside and in a forested area. (There’s a tent in the second scene but it’s fully open and they’re standing at the entrance, with the characters and the camera facing out.)
Robb and Theon spend both conversations standing/sitting shoulder-to-shoulder and turn to face each other over their shoulders.
The scenes are both filmed from behind/behind and over their shoulders. (To me it gives a bit of a sense of the audience sort of eavesdropping/peeping into these significant and private moments between them.

The very first shot of both conversations is from behind, with both of them facing outward:

Incidentally, this is also the position of the characters and camera during the first line of both conversations. Theon has the first line in both. (“When are you going to tell him?” / “A word, Your Grace?”)

The second “shot” and second line are Robb’s. (“Not now.” / “You don’t have to call me Your Grace when no one’s around.”) Then Theon with the response.

The first scene does have this kind of upward angle that the second doesn’t, but it switches to a closer shot of Theon a couple of lines later. And it’s still this from-behind-over-the-shoulder shot.

Then, of course, you have the inverse-parallels/mirrors. Robb is on the right in the first scene and on the left in the second. The first scene is in the morning/during the day while the second is during the evening/night. (With the second mirror being the significant one, IMO, as we’ll see later.)

It could be a coincidence. It looks pretty intentional to me, but you could say, after all there are only so many settings to work with here and only so many camera angles to use with two people having a conversation (not that Theon and Robb have too many in private – there’s only one other one). But once we start going into the content/non-visual elements, we get even more interesting similarities:

Aside from the fact that Theon starts both conversations, the first conversation is only one line longer – 10 instead of 9 (by “line” I mean here any segment where one character is speaking uninterrupted by the other character, even if he takes pauses).

Here are the two conversations side by side. Robb’s lines are in red; Theon’s – in blue. These are transcribed literally, without indicating pauses or emphasis in tone, etc.

The two conversations are also structured similarly, although each runs a unique course. Step one: Theon initiates a conversation that’s likely to be difficult. In the first scene we already know that, because clearly the situation created by Jaime and the attack on Ned is a difficult one. The second, it’s signaled by Theon’s formality, the use of Robb’s title. (And the fact that he downs his drink before going to talk to Robb to begin with.)

Step two: Robb deflects. In the first instance: “Not now” and “you’re talking about war” – i.e. this is above my paygrade, man. In the second: banter.

Step three: Theon gets back on track: “I’m talking about justice” / “the Lannisters will reject your terms.” Which Robb accepts in both cases but isn’t very willing to engage with. (“Only the Lord of Winterfell can call the banners” = what do you expect from me? / “of course they are” – acceptance without much of a plan moving forward.)

Four: Theon presses for action and presents a direct target – explains why the situation is untenable and singles out Jaime as a perpetrator that needs to be brought to heal before he can escape justice vs. presents the Pyke plan as a solution for the need to take KL.

Five: Robb objects – how do you expect me to march on Casterly Rock? / Those men fought against my father!

Six: Theon’s final appeal.

These scenes run in such exquisite parallel to each other than it feels nearly intentional. They feel like bookends. To wit it makes sense that the first is in the morning (in the scene directly before it, Hodor wakes Bran up from a dream) and the second in the evening. But what are they bookending? What is the point?

The first conversation here isn’t Theon and Robb’s very first scene together. These aren’t their only two scenes alone together (there’s also the scene after Robb tells Luwin to call the banners). Although it is their first scene in private (relatively) together, but that doesn’t seem significant enough. So what are they bookending?

The end.

The end of Theon and Robb’s relationship as they’d known it, but without either of them realizing it at first. That first conversation is the start of the end, and the last one is the end. Although neither the audience, nor maybe even Theon (and certainly not Robb) know it yet.

So, lets back up.

I’ve always struggled a little to trace the trajectory of the degradation of Robb and Theon’s relationship on the show – when you first start to try and analyze it, you end up with whiplash. In the books things are a little easier – both because they’re vaguer and they’re more linear.

In the books, we don’t have Robb or Theon’s POVs – to the extent we have Theon’s it’s only postfact, not during any time when they’re actually interacting. We see very few direct interaction between them and those are filtered through other characters, so we don’t see body language or small looks between them or anything else of the sort unless other characters feel it important to comment on, which they often don’t. Therefore, there’s a lot of room for speculation and individual readings of their relationship. We find out from Theon’s POV later that he felt a lot of affection for Robb, but to what extent that was reciprocated and/or to what extent they managed to channel that into an actual friendship is a little open ended.

Because of their lack of interaction, it’s not that hard to imagine a slow emotional distancing between them, even if you think they’re close in AGOT. The Bran incident happens – a clear escalation of “put away your sword, Greyjoy” (imperiously) – then, Robb continues to generally emotionally pull away from everyone, even his own mother. We never see Theon try to joke around with Robb again the way he does when they ride through Winter Town with Bran in AGOT. We find out from Theon that he and Robb never talked out the Bran Incident. Etcetera. It’s not that difficult to imagine an emotional distancing between them that then comes to its natural resolution when Theon has to make his choice on Pyke. Nor is there a specific moment of choice as there appears to be on the show – he just kind of slides into it between chapters.

The show is more difficult to parse. Theon and Robb still don’t have a lot of scenes together, but because it’s a visual medium, we don’t need other characters to tell us what they’re doing to see it. They’re always standing together, they’re always giving each other little looks. We see how Theon looks at Robb. ~~(Ask me one day about how I’m pretty sure Alfie was lowkey playing unrequited love.)~~ We get to see Theon tell Robb to call the banners. Theon’s book line re: standing by the Starks in war, said to Cat, is changed to a line said directly to Robb. Also, unlike in the books, where Robb is surrounded by many councilors and advisors even before going to war, Theon appears to be Robb’s only real confidant aside from his mother in the show. (E.g. he tells Luwin to call the banners, but never really consults him. That’s a conversation he has with Theon and apparently Theon alone.) We can tell there’s a close relationship there. (There is also the confirmation from Robb to Talisa later on.)

Worse, while the Bran incident still happens, and you can make the argument that Robb becomes entirely preoccupied with the war and we see him consulting far more with Cat than with Theon once they march… The show then throws us the curve ball of the “now and always” and oath swearing nonsense in the King in the North scene. I won’t go into the details of how much I hate this change ~~(a lot)~~ and why, but I’ll say that it always felt not just horribly OOC for Theon as he is in the books, but also inconsistent for Theon’s character arch within the show.

How does he go from that to burning the letter in S2? We think of Theon burning the letter to Robb as this big turning point, and in many ways it is. But as far as Theon & Robb are concerned, it’s really the finale. It’s the logical conclusion. Those cards were already down.

It’s emotionally confusing initially because they have so few interaction between the KITN scene and Theon’s drama on Pyke – really the only significant one is this conversation about the Pyke plan. So if we view their relationship as being on the upswing starting from after the Bran incident through the KITN scene and into Pyke, then Theon’s decision is disorienting. Not completely illogical – all the same issues he’s had re: the Starks still apply, but its more like a rug pull than a catharsis.

And yet, the structure and visuals of the letter burning scene feel more like a catharsis. A heartbreaking one, sure, but this shot feels like a logical ending to an arch, a final scene in a drama, intensified by the fact that the very next scene is Theon’s “baptism.” A rebirth symbolism, complete with Greyjoy banners flapping in the wind and triumphant music.

It also feels strange to have the Bran Incident and the “not your duty, not your house” and the general tension of their relationship in that section be so disjointed from this last part if we consider it as having been forgotten or overwritten by scenes like the KITN scene. Robb and Theon never talk about it. Unlike in the books, where Theon connects back to the Bran Incident within his POV, he never brings it up here with anyone or in any way. It makes little sense emotionally, unless those two scenes are an integral part of this arch (spoiler: they are).

I’d posit that the primary arch of Theon and Robb’s relationship on the show is a dying. The “not your duty, not your house” scene is an Inciting Incident and the true start of that decline, though we see little tensions and harbingers of it before. (The first time I watched S1 was before I read any of the books and my reactions to that “put your sword away” / “I take orders from your father not you” exchange was “wow…do these guys really dislike each other? So much tension! Will they be antagonists?”) In order to heighten the tragedy, we need to see them a little beforehand – happy at the feast, joking at the barber’s, Theon promising support to Robb in the godswood (this scene has its counterpart too!)… After the “not your duty, not your house” scene (and the immediately following Bran Incident as reinforcement), what follows is Theon’s desperate attempt to prove himself worthy of Robb’s reciprocity, of belonging with the Starks after all.

He wins a False Victory in the KITN scene by eliciting a public promise of brotherhood from Robb – though Robb delivers it flatly and distractedly, and must be prompted into it. Then Theon goes all in. He makes a formal oath. It’s an echo of his promise in the godswood from before: “if it come to [war], you know I’ll stand behind you.” A promise he’d made prior to the “not your duty, not your house scene.” Before the First Rejection. In the KITN scene he makes it again, but more formally, more publicly, with greater repercussions, after multiple smaller shows of loyalty and devotion. He’s gone all in – he’s given Robb everything he possibly ever could. But we all know that, narratively, after the False Victory comes the Darkest Hour.

The Pyke plan conversation is also a test. A test Robb fails, perhaps because he doesn’t understand that it’s a test. It’s the second, and final, rejection. It’s after this scene that Theon has all his answers. The rest is mere circumstances, a ticking time bomb. But for Robb and Theon this is the end.

Remember how we talked about the conversations in these two scenes running structurally in parallel? And the final “step”/section was what I called Theon’s last appeal?

In the first conversation it’s shorter and entirely unsuccessful. (Robb then has the final say, and it’s to remind Theon of his place as Not A Stark ™.) In the second, it’s longer, Theon has the last say of it, and from the next scene with Cat, we see that Robb has agreed, although we don’t actually see him voice his agreement to Theon. Interestingly enough, Theon makes two actual arguments in his first “final appeal” – 1) the Lannisters have already started the war and 2) it’s Robb’s duty to act for his father when Ned is unable to. He makes three arguments in the second, successful, appeal: 1) my people are your natural allies in wanting independence from the South, not your enemies, 2) my father will listen to me because I’m his son and 3) I’m not a Stark, but I was raised in your father’s ways and am tied to him just as you are.

Loosely, the first two arguments can be seen as symmetrical in a meta way too. The first in High Politics and strategy – the Lannister have started the war; the ironborn want independence from the South so an alliance makes sense. The second is about duty and family generally – Robb has a duty to represent his family; Theon’s father will listen to him because he’s Balon’s blood.

And the final accord – voiced by Robb in the first conversation and by Theon in the second? Is about the Starks. And about Theon’s place among them.

Theon makes no argument on this account in the first scene – it’s Robb who clearly shows him his place: “And it’s not your duty, because it’s not your House.” Read: you are not a Stark, so stay out of it. Theon stares at him in hurt shock. He hadn’t anticipated this at all. He loses the argument.

Theon forecloses this objection in the second conversation by making an argument out of it: “I’m not a Stark. I know that. But your father raised me to be an honorable man. We can avenge him together.” Read: I know my place. I know I’m not a Stark. But I can still be useful and helpful to you despite that. And Robb, his objections foreclosed, accepts.

So, what’s the test?

Theon pauses. Clearly and audibly. He starts with looking down at the ground, apparently unsure for a moment, and as he says “I’m not a Stark, I know that” he looks up at Robb. This is what you told me. Is it still true? Then he hesitates. He doesn’t want to make this third argument – he shouldn’t have to. But with no reassurance forthcoming, he plunges ahead. He wins by losing. He’s still not a Stark. And he still must argue/prove that that doesn’t matter. He must know his place and he must prove his usefulness despite it. Nothing has changed.

Can Robb be expected to jump in with a no, it’s ok in the three seconds that Theon gives him on the spot? Maybe not. But it’s never re-addressed. The last shot is Robb’s silent consideration and off-screen acceptance. Theon doesn’t “win” here because Robb’s changed his mind about Theon’s “status” vis-à-vis himself or his family. Theon’s just better prepared with a justification for why, despite being an “outsider,” this can still be his business.

It’s a status quo Robb is ok with. But Theon isn’t. Maybe he doesn’t fully realize it until he’s forced to make his choice on Pyke. But what was started in the morning in a conversation in the woods, comes full circle, and ends, in the evening in a conversation in the woods. They also physically switch places in these scenes, which seems random at first, and yet: The first time, Robb teaches Theon where he belongs; the second time – Theon takes Robb’s place, physically and in dialogue, showing he’s learned his lesson. (Hauntingly, brings to mind: “I trained him, he was a slow learner, but he learned.”) The

These scenes are visually and structurally bookends because they bookend the journey Theon takes from his wake-up call of being told, don’t be mistaken, you don’t belong, to accepting it. The part in between is his desperate fight to prove himself (and Robb) wrong. But because this is a tragedy, he fails. And having failed, he must accept it.

And when he goes to Pyke, he goes with that rejection complete, knowing he could “never be a Stark” – he’d given Robb everything, remember, and got the same answer as before – and not a priority to Robb. He could not possibly build his identity or his future on that. He had to do it somewhere else.

Theon wrote the letter, but by then, there was no real choice but to burn it.

Got a tumblr ask:

Oh, I think Robb was entirely aware of the situation, at least by the time AGOT starts – there’s no reason to believe he isn’t. Robb’s ludicrous amounts of privilege, youth/lack of experience, and, probably in part, personality make him a little naïve to some aspects of politics/diplomatic affairs, but he’s not stupid and, despite the Stark kids being fairly sheltered, he would have been educated and mentored as Ned’s heir and the future Lord of Winterfell. There’s no way he’s underinformed. Besides, it’s made very explicit in the conversation Cat and Robb have regarding sending Theon to the Islands as an envoy that Robb is fully aware of the situation. Nor is this new:

“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be.

—AGOT, Bran I

Bran’s like seven? So he’s picking up on something that he’s not able to name concisely, but basically this is a rank-pull (or an attempted one, anyway). It’s a mild test balloon and precursor for the Bran Incident. We don’t really see Robb interact with anyone else of entirely equal rank to himself, with Joffrey being the closest, but I think it’s safe to say this is more akin to how Robb acts with those he instinctively feels to be his inferiors rather than his equals (which, if this were a true fosterage situation, Theon would certain be – a long-term guest, more than anything).

Also, “I ought to chain you up in the yard” is an insult so tailor made to hurt and humiliate Theon given his situation specifically…

None of this is surprising, really, because the whole construct of Theon being a “ward” is propaganda and a polite fiction, which the Starks are invested in upholding. and do buy into to a fairly dangerous extent (where they start to make actual decisions and expectations built on this construct), but the buy-in is especially hypocritical because it’s partial. When Theon is expected to be loyal or trusting him would be advantageous, he’s a ward. When fourteen year old Robb wants to boss him around or it’s time to talk very practically about how Theon can be useful to Robb’s war plans, he’s a hostage. (Surprise, surprise, it comes back to bite them in the ass.)

I also don’t think Robb comes to care about Theon’s situation any more or less once he becomes Lord of Winterfell? Like I just don’t see any evidence that there was any change in trajectory here.

As to what Robb might have heard… Well, Maester Luwin gives us some idea:

“There is no shame in that. A lord must protect his smallfolk. Cruel places breed cruel peoples, Bran, remember that as you deal with these ironmen. Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late.”

—ACOK Bran VI

Charming, isn’t it? Especially given that Theon was a ten-year-old child when Lord Stark first had the chance to embark on this “gentling” process. *intense eyeroll* Granted, Robb probably didn’t get this exact speech. The Starks, or Ned personally, were invested in upholding the fiction of Theon being a ward, and it would be hard for them to do that while also entirely scaring their children away from him. But this is a maester talking, and Luwin comes off as a generally kind person too. We can only imagine how less educated and/or more meanspirited people may have felt, talked or behaved. Granted too, Theon outranks everyone in Winterfell except the Starks themselves (and that’s situational), and any visiting Lords would likely be lowkey aware of the Starks’ chosen narrative around Theon (their children could be a different matter, depending on age) – there would be a lot of people keeping their mouth shut best they could, at least around Theon. But microaggressions would still happen. People would still talk. People would still express views about the ironborn generally – if outside of Theon’s hearing, not necessarily outside of Robb’s.

As a counterweight, Theon and Robb apparently had some genuine conversations about Theon’s home and culture (at the least, Robb is under this impression, and he’s correct in his assessment of what the ironborn will do in response to the kingsmoot). So he maybe had some counterpoint information, or at least some depth. (I have a feeling that Theon likely leaned in to the stereotypes as a defense mechanism – glorifying the things he and his were derided for.)

As for the “Greyjoy” vs. “Theon” thing, the canon doesn’t really give us a consistent narrative here. I initially also thought the Robb uses Theon’s last name when he’s irritated and/or trying to pull rank but “Put away your sword, Greyjoy” and “Not where my brother can hear, Theon” are both reprimands (though the former is a more obvious rank pull). After Theon’s defection, too, Robb continues to more often than not simply call him “Theon.” Robb also calls Jon “Snow” (e.g. in their farewell scene) and Jon calls Robb “Stark.” So, I’m not really clear that canonically the last-name calling is meant to signify emotional distancing, necessarily. (Although, in the given fic I suppose it does sort of serve that function).

You bring up a curious point about the “chains” comments. I’m assuming the first instance you’re referring to is Robb during the Bran incident and the second is Ser Rodrick during the parlay saying, “Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dungeon wall.” (ACOK, Theon VI) At first blush, they’re said in pretty different context and with different intents too – Robb is alluding to Theon’s situation in an attempt to hurt and humiliate (maaaybe threaten, if you want to be uncharitable); Ser Rodrik is more venting about what should have happened, with no subtilty, rather than what could happen. But at the same time…despite it being a very lose parallel and at the risk of reading into small details too much….it is consistent wording, isn’t it? When it didn’t need to be, necessarily.

On an in-universe level, it’s an oblique echo of the kinds of things that might have been suggested about Theon (going back to the earlier part of this): the adults that might have whispered about how a savage ironborn hostage ought to be chained up, and teenage Robb, in a moment of anger and very poor judgement, aiming to hurt, subconsciously reaches for the things he’s heard the adults around him say to craft an insult.

On a more meta level, Robb’s oblique threat (whether meant as one or not) and Rodrik’s venting are echoes and book ends of what always hung over Theon’s head and what he had escaped (or tried to, anyway). Robb’s comment reminds Theon what can happen; Rodrik’s reinforces that this was always an option, though not acted upon, and now won’t be, because Theon has slipped away (barring further direct warfare). The Northerners had bought into their own propaganda, gotten comfortable with the double standard. He hadn’t. And how furious it makes them.

People acting like we know for sure Robb’s motivations in marrying Jeyne or like there’s only one reasonable reading just make me roll my eyes. We see literally none of the events leading up to or directly after either their sexual encounter or the wedding. We never have Robb’s POV or even the POV of anyone who was there. In fact, the only person who’s POV we see any of this situation from is Robb’s own mother who adores him and will think the best of him even when he frustrates and upsets her. What we see of their relationship in the aftermath is a mixed bag. What we know of Robb as a person is also a mixed bag. Robb himself is contradictory on the point. Was it the “only honorable thing to do” or “I took her castle and she took my heart,” Robb? Which one is it, Robb?

Maybe it was all for honor. (Though, again, whose? Hers? Or his own, to the extent that he might think it more dishonorable to deflower a girl - whose home he’s invaded and currently occupies, having her and her family completely at his pleasure, creating a dangerous power-dynamic situation even if the sex itself was seemingly completely consensual - than to break off a betrothal.) Maybe he was so traumatized by the Ned-Cat-Jon situation at home he couldn’t stand the thought of fathering a bastard. Maybe he was madly in love/infatuated with her, and his bleating about honor was to save face in front of mommy and the boys. Or maybe he was in love but wouldn’t have married her if they hadn’t fallen into bed, but since they did, he couldn’t stand to then leave her (and their potential child) in such a situation that he felt responsible for. Realistically, a combination of several is most likely.

But no, people act like the only plausible thing to have happened is for Saint Robb to have been a Martyr for honor and a Perfectly Selfless Hero. ~~Maybe he could have used some of that heroic martyrdom to ransom his sister(s) then.~~ Please.

(Oh yes, and let’s not forget the disgusting conspiracy theory bog of The-Westerlings-Drugged-Him-With-Love-Potions because that’s totally the dub-cony elements in this situation that have any canonical support whatsoever. Give me a break.)

Got asked on tumble:

Do you think Robb had anger management issues or was it because of all the stress he was under? I understand that before he was left in charge of Winterfell and before he was crowned king there was never any mention of such a case, what are your thoughts?

Well, certainly, any issues Robb had would have likely been exacerbated by the very stressful situation he found himself in at a very young age. Especially once things start to really fall apart for him. That said: 1) I don’t think any issues he does have come out of nowhere or are developed wholesale because of the war, and 2) I wouldn’t say that a lack of anger management is his problem.

Mind, Robb does have a temper and he does at times lash out in anger/frustration. Often, this is done at inappropriate targets or in an inappropriate way. But calling it anger management issues seems to imply that either he does this especially violently somehow or that he’s unable to control his response. My opinion on this is that neither of those are true. The first point is pretty self-evident, I’d say – Robb’s temper outbursts tend to be limited to verbal/emotional cruelty at their worst. As for the lack of control… I don’t think he’s incapable of controlling his anger, but rather that sometimes he simply doesn’t bother to.

( Read more... )

You know, this always gets me. Because it’s so fucking cold. Why? Because he doesn’t say “if I didn’t send Theon to Pyke” or even “if I’d kept Theon here/close.” He says “if I had … kept Theon as my hostage.” Because we talk about his right? Does Theon’s position change once Robb’s calling the shots? Is it that Robb doesn’t think of him as a hostage or is it just that he thinks that getting ships is worth being out a hostage that may or may not even be serving a purpose anymore? And this seems to be hinting at his actual feelings/thought process.

And ok, you might think, well it’s just the situation, right? It’s just that he hates Theon now because he thinks Theon killed his brothers. It’s hindsight. Right?

Except:

This is about Sansa. Sansa is his sister. She certainly hasn’t done anything to hurt Robb or piss him off, but the parallels, especially vis-à-vis Robb’s reactions and thought processes, are striking.

Because here’s what’s going on in both: These are people that could have been useful to Robb in a specific way, except he didn’t realize that at the time that relevant decisions were being and/or other things were a greater priority. Now, these people are not available to be useful + are instruments for hurting his cause (Theon of his own volition, Sansa against her will, but the end result is the same). And his reaction is to regret not having made use of them in the proper way.

If it was just with Theon, we could blame it on the fact the Robb’s has just reassessed everything about their relationship in hindsight. But he has a very similar reaction to a parallel situation with Sansa, even though you might except him to be a lot more concerned about her as like…a person? But he doesn’t. He thinks about them both in terms of tools, lost opportunities, and ways they’re being inconvenient now. And since there’s no reason for his feelings toward Sansa to have changed, and since we do have an insight into how Robb thinks about her at the time the relevant decisions were made (from what he explicitly tells Cat, re: not being able to trade Jaime for her), we have a sufficient amount of givens to fill in the remaining variable by drawing the parallel.

That is: Sansa was always the sister who didn’t have sufficient worth to be traded for Jaime Lannister unless she could be otherwise politically useful. And Theon was always the hostage.

This topic deserves a longer post/meta probably, but I’ve reached A Point tonight, so I’m just gonna make this post and maybe expand on it later if I have the energy.

But people repeat it like a mantra: Theon was a brother to Robb!

Oh? So let’s take a look at where we’re getting this from. I mean, I guess all kinds of assumptions can be done from various extrapolations of circumstantial evidence with the proper amount of conjecture and mental gymnastics, but I think the most obvious place that this seems to come from is here:

At least this is the part that’s typically quoted. With supporting appearances from

and, possibly, the perennial shipbait from Dance.

But here’s the thing. Those last two quotes are about Theon’s feelings about Robb. Theon has affection for Robb like for a brother. Robb is more a brother to Theon than Theon’s own brothers (and that’s a pretty low bar seems like, given the tiny bit Theon mentions of his relationships with his brothers).

So, what about the first quote? Context.

When Theon is thinking about his and Robb’s relationship and how he thinks of Robb as a brother, it’s in his private thoughts. He’s not always super honest with himself, but when Theon is dishonest with himself, he’s usually either in denial or projecting. (Such as when he talks about Jon being jealous of Robb’s “regard” for him, which sounds like projected wishful thinking too.) He doesn’t really have a reason to distort his own feelings about Robb to himself, other than maybe playing them down some for the sake of preserving some self-respect and dignity. But in any case, those are still within the contest of his own thoughts.

The quote where he says that Robb thinks of him as brother is said aloud to his father. In the context of trying to convince him the idea to ally with Robb was his and not Robb’s and therefore Balon should a) trust it more and b) be impressed with him. Balon has just accused him of being Robb’s messenger boy and then seems to mock the idea that Theon is actually has of trust with Robb. Not only is this an attach on Theon’s pride but it’s also undermining Theon’s purpose here – it makes sense for him to reason that his father will be less likely to look on Robb’s offer favorably if he sees it as coming from an enemy/someone he inherently doesn’t trust, plus delivered by Balon’s son in a humiliating sort of arrangement (at least, humiliating as Balon would see it). So of course it also makes sense for Theon to try to explain why that’s not true: he’s not Robb’s messenger boy and the offer isn’t purely Robb’s, it’s something Theon suggested (therefore, Balon should be able to trust the ironborn’s/Greyjoys’ best interests were taken into account) and Robb went along with it because he trusts Theon, because they’re so very close, like brothers. See, dad, it makes sense! (Except, of course, Theon has miscalculated.)

But the point is that this is not any kind of honest-even-if-subjective, not to mention objective, assessment of Robb’s feelings about Theon. It’s just Theon trying (and kinda failing *sigh*) to say the politically/diplomatically correct things.

*sigh* I just mean…I like the younger/older brother dynamic for them as basis for snuggly, cute kidfic or whatever, sure. But that’s fic and wish fulfillment *shrug*

and

There’s a pattern here, Robb, and it does not speak well of you.

I saw a thread on an ASOIAF forum that was like “Is it possible that Jenye W was raped [by Robb]?” And while I would say that the weight of the evidence falls on the side of “no” (at least not in a violent or easily recognizable even in that cultural setting as rape sense), I do find it telling in a sad sort of why that the fandom came soooo eagerly and decisively to Robb’s defense in this thread (the outrage! that someone would even suggest! *snort*) but then there are all these theories festering around about how Jeyne slipped him love potions/plotted with her mother/took advantage of him (somehow?) when there is just as little evidence to suggest this.

...after Ned is executed, if Theon had gone to Robb and was like “hey you know, I’m not really feeling this whole war thing and stuff. I just wanna go home and see my mom and sister and whatnot. I know your dad had a whole agenda with me but you don’t, right?” do people really think Robb would have been like “yea, man. I mean I could really use a friend out here, you know? But you’re free to go home if that’s your choice.”