alley_skywalker | Entries tagged with fandom: a song of ice and fire

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Oh, I think Robb was entirely aware of the situation, at least by the time AGOT starts – there’s no reason to believe he isn’t. Robb’s ludicrous amounts of privilege, youth/lack of experience, and, probably in part, personality make him a little naïve to some aspects of politics/diplomatic affairs, but he’s not stupid and, despite the Stark kids being fairly sheltered, he would have been educated and mentored as Ned’s heir and the future Lord of Winterfell. There’s no way he’s underinformed. Besides, it’s made very explicit in the conversation Cat and Robb have regarding sending Theon to the Islands as an envoy that Robb is fully aware of the situation. Nor is this new:

“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be.

—AGOT, Bran I

Bran’s like seven? So he’s picking up on something that he’s not able to name concisely, but basically this is a rank-pull (or an attempted one, anyway). It’s a mild test balloon and precursor for the Bran Incident. We don’t really see Robb interact with anyone else of entirely equal rank to himself, with Joffrey being the closest, but I think it’s safe to say this is more akin to how Robb acts with those he instinctively feels to be his inferiors rather than his equals (which, if this were a true fosterage situation, Theon would certain be – a long-term guest, more than anything).

Also, “I ought to chain you up in the yard” is an insult so tailor made to hurt and humiliate Theon given his situation specifically…

None of this is surprising, really, because the whole construct of Theon being a “ward” is propaganda and a polite fiction, which the Starks are invested in upholding. and do buy into to a fairly dangerous extent (where they start to make actual decisions and expectations built on this construct), but the buy-in is especially hypocritical because it’s partial. When Theon is expected to be loyal or trusting him would be advantageous, he’s a ward. When fourteen year old Robb wants to boss him around or it’s time to talk very practically about how Theon can be useful to Robb’s war plans, he’s a hostage. (Surprise, surprise, it comes back to bite them in the ass.)

I also don’t think Robb comes to care about Theon’s situation any more or less once he becomes Lord of Winterfell? Like I just don’t see any evidence that there was any change in trajectory here.

As to what Robb might have heard… Well, Maester Luwin gives us some idea:

“There is no shame in that. A lord must protect his smallfolk. Cruel places breed cruel peoples, Bran, remember that as you deal with these ironmen. Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late.”

—ACOK Bran VI

Charming, isn’t it? Especially given that Theon was a ten-year-old child when Lord Stark first had the chance to embark on this “gentling” process. *intense eyeroll* Granted, Robb probably didn’t get this exact speech. The Starks, or Ned personally, were invested in upholding the fiction of Theon being a ward, and it would be hard for them to do that while also entirely scaring their children away from him. But this is a maester talking, and Luwin comes off as a generally kind person too. We can only imagine how less educated and/or more meanspirited people may have felt, talked or behaved. Granted too, Theon outranks everyone in Winterfell except the Starks themselves (and that’s situational), and any visiting Lords would likely be lowkey aware of the Starks’ chosen narrative around Theon (their children could be a different matter, depending on age) – there would be a lot of people keeping their mouth shut best they could, at least around Theon. But microaggressions would still happen. People would still talk. People would still express views about the ironborn generally – if outside of Theon’s hearing, not necessarily outside of Robb’s.

As a counterweight, Theon and Robb apparently had some genuine conversations about Theon’s home and culture (at the least, Robb is under this impression, and he’s correct in his assessment of what the ironborn will do in response to the kingsmoot). So he maybe had some counterpoint information, or at least some depth. (I have a feeling that Theon likely leaned in to the stereotypes as a defense mechanism – glorifying the things he and his were derided for.)

As for the “Greyjoy” vs. “Theon” thing, the canon doesn’t really give us a consistent narrative here. I initially also thought the Robb uses Theon’s last name when he’s irritated and/or trying to pull rank but “Put away your sword, Greyjoy” and “Not where my brother can hear, Theon” are both reprimands (though the former is a more obvious rank pull). After Theon’s defection, too, Robb continues to more often than not simply call him “Theon.” Robb also calls Jon “Snow” (e.g. in their farewell scene) and Jon calls Robb “Stark.” So, I’m not really clear that canonically the last-name calling is meant to signify emotional distancing, necessarily. (Although, in the given fic I suppose it does sort of serve that function).

You bring up a curious point about the “chains” comments. I’m assuming the first instance you’re referring to is Robb during the Bran incident and the second is Ser Rodrick during the parlay saying, “Then perhaps Lord Eddard should have kept you chained to a dungeon wall.” (ACOK, Theon VI) At first blush, they’re said in pretty different context and with different intents too – Robb is alluding to Theon’s situation in an attempt to hurt and humiliate (maaaybe threaten, if you want to be uncharitable); Ser Rodrik is more venting about what should have happened, with no subtilty, rather than what could happen. But at the same time…despite it being a very lose parallel and at the risk of reading into small details too much….it is consistent wording, isn’t it? When it didn’t need to be, necessarily.

On an in-universe level, it’s an oblique echo of the kinds of things that might have been suggested about Theon (going back to the earlier part of this): the adults that might have whispered about how a savage ironborn hostage ought to be chained up, and teenage Robb, in a moment of anger and very poor judgement, aiming to hurt, subconsciously reaches for the things he’s heard the adults around him say to craft an insult.

On a more meta level, Robb’s oblique threat (whether meant as one or not) and Rodrik’s venting are echoes and book ends of what always hung over Theon’s head and what he had escaped (or tried to, anyway). Robb’s comment reminds Theon what can happen; Rodrik’s reinforces that this was always an option, though not acted upon, and now won’t be, because Theon has slipped away (barring further direct warfare). The Northerners had bought into their own propaganda, gotten comfortable with the double standard. He hadn’t. And how furious it makes them.

People acting like we know for sure Robb’s motivations in marrying Jeyne or like there’s only one reasonable reading just make me roll my eyes. We see literally none of the events leading up to or directly after either their sexual encounter or the wedding. We never have Robb’s POV or even the POV of anyone who was there. In fact, the only person who’s POV we see any of this situation from is Robb’s own mother who adores him and will think the best of him even when he frustrates and upsets her. What we see of their relationship in the aftermath is a mixed bag. What we know of Robb as a person is also a mixed bag. Robb himself is contradictory on the point. Was it the “only honorable thing to do” or “I took her castle and she took my heart,” Robb? Which one is it, Robb?

Maybe it was all for honor. (Though, again, whose? Hers? Or his own, to the extent that he might think it more dishonorable to deflower a girl - whose home he’s invaded and currently occupies, having her and her family completely at his pleasure, creating a dangerous power-dynamic situation even if the sex itself was seemingly completely consensual - than to break off a betrothal.) Maybe he was so traumatized by the Ned-Cat-Jon situation at home he couldn’t stand the thought of fathering a bastard. Maybe he was madly in love/infatuated with her, and his bleating about honor was to save face in front of mommy and the boys. Or maybe he was in love but wouldn’t have married her if they hadn’t fallen into bed, but since they did, he couldn’t stand to then leave her (and their potential child) in such a situation that he felt responsible for. Realistically, a combination of several is most likely.

But no, people act like the only plausible thing to have happened is for Saint Robb to have been a Martyr for honor and a Perfectly Selfless Hero. ~~Maybe he could have used some of that heroic martyrdom to ransom his sister(s) then.~~ Please.

(Oh yes, and let’s not forget the disgusting conspiracy theory bog of The-Westerlings-Drugged-Him-With-Love-Potions because that’s totally the dub-cony elements in this situation that have any canonical support whatsoever. Give me a break.)

An interesting little thing I wanted to talk about… it’s widely accepted as canon that Catelyn both dislikes and distrusts Theon. Now, we can maybe make the argument that she doesn’t particularly like him – at least she seems to find him kind of obnoxious with all his smug smiles she doesn’t understand and grandiose posturing. But does she really distrust him?

I think this assumption comes from three passages, primarily. First of all, Theon’s own POV in Clash:

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

—ACOK, Theon I

Theon here is being a little bitter about all the Starks, save Robb, and while the overall trajectory of his feelings about them is likely genuine, Theon does tend to dramatize a bit. Cat, anyway, is generally a somewhat suspicious and distant person, especially to someone who she’s not particularly fond of. But also, we do have someone to compare Theon with here. Is there a person we know Cat sincerely dislikes and distrust? Yup. Jon. And I don’t think its controversial to say that she treats Jon a lot worse than we ever see her treat Theon.

Here’s the second passage that gets quoted in connection to this is from Cat’s own POV:

She studied Theon Greyjoy’s sly smile, wondering what it meant. That young man had a way of looking as though he knew some secret jest that only he was privy to; Catelyn had never liked it.

—ACOK, Catelyn I

She doesn’t like his smiling and she reads them as sly. Of course, Cat isn’t the only person to regard Theon’s joking and smiling as weird, unsettling, inappropriate or confusing. Does the fact that she reads them as sly or like he knows something secret indicate her being suspicious of him? In the absence of any other context, maybe.

But Cat never actually displays real distrust toward Theon. She has no objection to him being on Robb’s war councils. She has no objection to him being a messenger between Robb’s camp and the Blackfish’s outriders, nor the fact that he’s one of those outriders. She never seeks to exclude him from Robb’s inner circle. In fact, she does the exact opposite.

These are the members of her super-secret meeting about her suspicions regarding Bran’s attempted murder:

“Robb arrived before her food. Rodrik Cassel came with him, and her husband’s ward Theon Greyjoy, and lastly Hallis Mollen, a muscular guardsman with a square brown beard. He was the new captain of the guard, Robb said.”

—AGOT, Catelyn III

Maester Lewin will join them in a moment as well. So, her son, the maester, the captain of the guard, the master-at-arms/castellan…and Theon. Like if anyone is superfluous here, it’s Theon, but she has no objection to including him whatsoever, nor does her POV indicate for a moment that maybe he should be there.

Later, when Cat is telling Robb off for not giving the command of the host that’s going to war to free her husband, she offers the following possible candidates for command:

"No one?” she said. “Pray, who were those men I saw here a moment ago? Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, Galbart and Robett Glover, the Greatjon, Helman Tallhart … you might have given the command to any of them. Gods be good, you might even have sent Theon, though he would not be my choice.”

—AGOT, Catelyn VIII

Theon’s not her first or even third choice, sure, but that’s clearly about experience and not trust, given that Theon is a nineteen year old lad whose never fought in a battle, not to mention led men into one, unlike all of these other seasoned lords.

But what about Pyke? That’s the third major passage that tends to be quote, Cat’s opposition to sending Theon to Pyke. You know, this one:

Catelyn ignored that. “I’ll say again, I would sooner you sent someone else to Pyke, and kept Theon close to you.”

“Who better to treat with Balon Greyjoy than his son?”

“Jason Mallister,” offered Catelyn. “Tytos Blackwood. Stevron Frey. Anyone… but not Theon.”

—ACOK, Catelyn I

That’s the part that’s usually quoted, but here’s the rest of that conversation:

Her son squatted beside Grey Wind, ruffling the wolf’s fur and incidentally avoiding her eyes. “Theon’s fought bravely for us. I told you how he saved Bran from those wildlings in the wolfswood. If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.”

“You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.”

“He’s been a hostage half his life.”

“For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.”

—ACOK, Catelyn I

The person Cat doesn’t trust, first and foremost, is Balon. Cat doesn’t think Theon’s a good choice to treat with Balon not because she’s expecting Theon to turn on them, but because she thinks he has more utility as a hostage. It may be that Cat senses the immense conflict of interest possibly looming here as well. She’s older and wiser than Robb, after all (even if he rarely deigns to actually listen to her). But she’s throwing out her best arguments and she never quite brings this up explicitly, and to the extent she does, it’s Balon and his political ambitions that she’s concerned about. Cat’s thought process is basically: Balon can’t be trusted to not have some crazy political aspirations and do god knows what > the best way to keep Balon in line is to have something hanging over him like the life of his son > any competent lord could negotiate a treaty > thus Theon is best kept close to keep him away from Balon’s possible plotting and as a bargaining chip to boot. Any distrust Cat has here is just a healthy understanding of how someone (any person, really, this isn’t Theon-specific) might be tempted to…you know…align with their own family in their plans. But that’s more subtextual, a “sense of discomfort” type of thing. The actual distrust is aimed at Balon. The argument isn’t “Theon isn’t trustworthy” it’s “Theon is more useful here.”

And, really, in a way, Cat here is just following Ned’s advice from back in AGOT:

When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. “Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.”

—AGOT, Eddard IV

Cat never shows any elevated distrust or suspicion toward Theon than she does toward anyone else who she’s not specifically close to, really. Even on the opposite, she displays a significant amount more trust than you’d expect of someone to have toward their hostage. Even after she gets news that Theon has “killed” Bran and Rickon, her reaction isn’t “I knew it!” it’s this:

“Bran and Rickon tried to escape, but were taken at a mill on the Acorn Water. Theon Greyjoy has mounted their heads on the walls of Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy, who ate at my table since he was a boy of ten.” I have said it, gods forgive me. I have said it and made it true.

—ACOK, Catelyn VII

It’s surprise, bewilderment, outrage of a sort, but it’s not vindication. She didn’t see this coming. The why is an expansive enough topic that it would properly deserve a post of its own. I’m not going to prove up this thesis in this post, but I’ll say that Cat is just another example of the shocking amount of entitlement that the Starks specifically and Northerners generally feel in regards to having Theon’s loyalty. And it’s probably why Theon doesn’t feel entirely trusted by them – it’s not real trust, born out of respect and/or affection, the notion to distrust him just doesn’t seem to fully enter their minds even when it’s a reasonable question to ask, because they feel so secure in the idea that Theon must be loyal to them, that they deserve that loyalty. But again, that’s a post for another day, I’ll just say that Cat is really not an exception.

I’ll close this with a little observation that’s a bit tangential but related. When Cat argues with Robb about legitimizing Jon, while it’s easy to side with Robb against her emotionally because her treatment and distrust of Jon are so unfair, she’s not actually wrong in what she says. And she’s asking Robb to not make the same mistake they all made – to put trust into loyalty that has been assumed for no good reason, ignoring all conflicts of interest for the sake of righteousness:

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? … Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

“So you pray… .”

—ASOS, Catelyn V

Robb is, as usual, not listening. Cat isn’t even talking about Jon to begin with. She’s talking about his sons. Who know one knows what they’d be like, and it would be insane to put blind trust in them and their theoretical goodness and family attachment. It’s Robb who starts talking about Jon. And Cat has a point here too, though Robb doesn’t want to hear it: you think Jon is not like Theon, but you also never thought Theon would do what he did. How blinded are you, Robb? By love? By righteousness? By how you believe things are supposed to be? No one thought Theon would turn. Not even Cat, who didn’t like his smiles and thought he made a better hostage than negotiator.

She’s always been unfair to Jon, of course. But can we blame her for being paranoid now, when she’s learned the hard way that assuming loyalty for theoretical, self-righteous reasons is folly?

It probably shouldn’t bother me this much, but it does irritate me when people say that Jeyne (Poole) isn’t highborn. Because she is! She’s of a noble house. She’s a lady. Yea, it’s a very small, poor (relatively) and politically insignificant noble house, very likely without lands at this point, but in the feudal class hierarchy, that still puts her theoretically miles above anyone from the smallfolk in ways of respect of consideration. At least, it’s supposed to…

And that’s actually the other thing - I think Jeyne’s fate and treatment in Dance (and before with LIttlefinger, but that was less public, at least) is particularly interesting because she’s not a commoner. By the theoretical laws of this society, as romanticized in all the chivalrous songs she and Sansa had idealized and loved as young girls, her treatment should be unacceptable just by virtue of her being a highborn lady. Common serving girls may be molested by young lords without much reproach because lol they don’t have any honor to begin with, right? (/sarcasm, obv.) But a noble maiden? That’s rather inappropriate and possibly imposes obligations of marriage on him, which he could be looked at negatively for forgoing.

But of course, no one really cares. The nobility have their own hierarchy, that was always obvious too, but in the end, it’s not even just about which Houses can afford more luxury or which Houses can get others to swear oaths to them. It’s even more cynical than that. No one will help even a noble girl out if she doesn’t have the money to buy their support or have enough political connections to compel it (which usually means that even if she doesn’t have money on her, someone out there who cares enough about helping her for whatever reason does - whether in the form of literal gold/coin or swords or whatever). Chivalry is a pipe dream, a delusion Sansa must rid herself of as well (even though some people in this world still aspire to it) - money and power are far more important in the end than the nobility of your blood.

Jeyne is of noble birth. And it really doesn’t help her at all.

(THEON MONTH | DAY 2: Personality Traits; DAY 5: Strengths)

I think it’s been discussed fairly at length at various points by Theon fans that Theon’s personality can be difficult to parse out, even long before he adds the layer of complexity via dissociation while in Ramsay’s clutches. Where do Theon’s defense mechanisms and trauma responses end and his core personality begin? Which and how many of those coping mechanisms are so hard baked into him that they’re basically his personality now, and to what extent?

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They made a pitifully small assembly; the ironmen were few, the yard large. “The northmen will be on us before nightfall,” he told them. “Ser Rodrik Cassel and all the lords who have come to his call. I will not run from them. I took this castle and I mean to hold it, to live or die as Prince of Winterfell. But I will not command any man to die with me. If you leave now, before Ser Rodrik’s main force is upon us, there’s still a chance you may win free.” He unsheathed his longsword and drew a line in the dirt. “Those who would stay and fight, step forward.”

— ACOK, Theon VI

There are so many Theon quotes and moments I love! It would be impossible to choose just one or even a top three. So I decided to highlight this one, because it’s one of my favorites (especially because it’s such a bright spot in the horrifying bleakness of Theon’s downward mental health and moral spiral in Clash) and it’s also such an underrated moment no one really talks about.

In the show, Theon gets this rousing speech about fighting and dying gloriously and if he’d gotten to that moment in the books he might have made a similar speech to the men who were still with him. But they’re not there yet. There’s no host at his gates yet, though they know it’s coming, and Theon isn’t stupid. As much as he holds out some shred of hope, does everything he can to survive, he surely understands he’s critically outnumbered. He also knows that not only are the people of Winterfell (whom he also refuses to summarily execute when his lieutenants suggest it, mind) are against him, but his own men aren’t exactly inspired to follow him. Morale is low as hell. He runs a very high risk of being abandoned and leaving himself even more vulnerable that he already is.

And yet he still offers them an out.

He offers them a chance to leave, to live, and when they take him up on it?

"Go, then,“ Theon told them. "Run to my sister. She’ll give you all a warm welcome, I have no doubt.”

Maybe a bit petulant, but he doesn’t bother to really shame them. (Wex’s loyalty does that.) Nor is this a trick to root out traitors or anything. He’s just genuinely giving his men a chance if they want it. He feels hurt and abandoned, but he’s not even truly angry and he doesn’t want to force anyone to die for him. For all the posturing he does to Asha about how men should fight for him because he is their Prince, when it comes down to it, he doesn’t actually want that. Even in all the darkness, all the awful things he’s done, he still makes this bid for honor, for decency, because that’s far more at the core of who he is.

He knows they’re likely to die if they fight. He knows they very well may leave him if given half a chance.

He lets his men go.

Got asked on tumble:

Do you think Robb had anger management issues or was it because of all the stress he was under? I understand that before he was left in charge of Winterfell and before he was crowned king there was never any mention of such a case, what are your thoughts?

Well, certainly, any issues Robb had would have likely been exacerbated by the very stressful situation he found himself in at a very young age. Especially once things start to really fall apart for him. That said: 1) I don’t think any issues he does have come out of nowhere or are developed wholesale because of the war, and 2) I wouldn’t say that a lack of anger management is his problem.

Mind, Robb does have a temper and he does at times lash out in anger/frustration. Often, this is done at inappropriate targets or in an inappropriate way. But calling it anger management issues seems to imply that either he does this especially violently somehow or that he’s unable to control his response. My opinion on this is that neither of those are true. The first point is pretty self-evident, I’d say – Robb’s temper outbursts tend to be limited to verbal/emotional cruelty at their worst. As for the lack of control… I don’t think he’s incapable of controlling his anger, but rather that sometimes he simply doesn’t bother to.

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You know, this always gets me. Because it’s so fucking cold. Why? Because he doesn’t say “if I didn’t send Theon to Pyke” or even “if I’d kept Theon here/close.” He says “if I had … kept Theon as my hostage.” Because we talk about his right? Does Theon’s position change once Robb’s calling the shots? Is it that Robb doesn’t think of him as a hostage or is it just that he thinks that getting ships is worth being out a hostage that may or may not even be serving a purpose anymore? And this seems to be hinting at his actual feelings/thought process.

And ok, you might think, well it’s just the situation, right? It’s just that he hates Theon now because he thinks Theon killed his brothers. It’s hindsight. Right?

Except:

This is about Sansa. Sansa is his sister. She certainly hasn’t done anything to hurt Robb or piss him off, but the parallels, especially vis-à-vis Robb’s reactions and thought processes, are striking.

Because here’s what’s going on in both: These are people that could have been useful to Robb in a specific way, except he didn’t realize that at the time that relevant decisions were being and/or other things were a greater priority. Now, these people are not available to be useful + are instruments for hurting his cause (Theon of his own volition, Sansa against her will, but the end result is the same). And his reaction is to regret not having made use of them in the proper way.

If it was just with Theon, we could blame it on the fact the Robb’s has just reassessed everything about their relationship in hindsight. But he has a very similar reaction to a parallel situation with Sansa, even though you might except him to be a lot more concerned about her as like…a person? But he doesn’t. He thinks about them both in terms of tools, lost opportunities, and ways they’re being inconvenient now. And since there’s no reason for his feelings toward Sansa to have changed, and since we do have an insight into how Robb thinks about her at the time the relevant decisions were made (from what he explicitly tells Cat, re: not being able to trade Jaime for her), we have a sufficient amount of givens to fill in the remaining variable by drawing the parallel.

That is: Sansa was always the sister who didn’t have sufficient worth to be traded for Jaime Lannister unless she could be otherwise politically useful. And Theon was always the hostage.

This topic deserves a longer post/meta probably, but I’ve reached A Point tonight, so I’m just gonna make this post and maybe expand on it later if I have the energy.

But people repeat it like a mantra: Theon was a brother to Robb!

Oh? So let’s take a look at where we’re getting this from. I mean, I guess all kinds of assumptions can be done from various extrapolations of circumstantial evidence with the proper amount of conjecture and mental gymnastics, but I think the most obvious place that this seems to come from is here:

At least this is the part that’s typically quoted. With supporting appearances from

and, possibly, the perennial shipbait from Dance.

But here’s the thing. Those last two quotes are about Theon’s feelings about Robb. Theon has affection for Robb like for a brother. Robb is more a brother to Theon than Theon’s own brothers (and that’s a pretty low bar seems like, given the tiny bit Theon mentions of his relationships with his brothers).

So, what about the first quote? Context.

When Theon is thinking about his and Robb’s relationship and how he thinks of Robb as a brother, it’s in his private thoughts. He’s not always super honest with himself, but when Theon is dishonest with himself, he’s usually either in denial or projecting. (Such as when he talks about Jon being jealous of Robb’s “regard” for him, which sounds like projected wishful thinking too.) He doesn’t really have a reason to distort his own feelings about Robb to himself, other than maybe playing them down some for the sake of preserving some self-respect and dignity. But in any case, those are still within the contest of his own thoughts.

The quote where he says that Robb thinks of him as brother is said aloud to his father. In the context of trying to convince him the idea to ally with Robb was his and not Robb’s and therefore Balon should a) trust it more and b) be impressed with him. Balon has just accused him of being Robb’s messenger boy and then seems to mock the idea that Theon is actually has of trust with Robb. Not only is this an attach on Theon’s pride but it’s also undermining Theon’s purpose here – it makes sense for him to reason that his father will be less likely to look on Robb’s offer favorably if he sees it as coming from an enemy/someone he inherently doesn’t trust, plus delivered by Balon’s son in a humiliating sort of arrangement (at least, humiliating as Balon would see it). So of course it also makes sense for Theon to try to explain why that’s not true: he’s not Robb’s messenger boy and the offer isn’t purely Robb’s, it’s something Theon suggested (therefore, Balon should be able to trust the ironborn’s/Greyjoys’ best interests were taken into account) and Robb went along with it because he trusts Theon, because they’re so very close, like brothers. See, dad, it makes sense! (Except, of course, Theon has miscalculated.)

But the point is that this is not any kind of honest-even-if-subjective, not to mention objective, assessment of Robb’s feelings about Theon. It’s just Theon trying (and kinda failing *sigh*) to say the politically/diplomatically correct things.

*sigh* I just mean…I like the younger/older brother dynamic for them as basis for snuggly, cute kidfic or whatever, sure. But that’s fic and wish fulfillment *shrug*

Theon and Robb’s relationship is really open to interpretation in the books, but as a concept, imagine the tragedy of the miscommunication/misunderstanding where at the time Theon goes to Pyke, Robb is under the impression that in the past year they’ve gotten closer, while Theon is, on the opposite, under the impression that Robb has distanced/emotionally closed off from him and doesn’t really need him anymore.

and

There’s a pattern here, Robb, and it does not speak well of you.

Obligatory disclaimer that people can write whatever they want in fanfic. But I also get to complain about shit on my own blog lol.

A thing I realized really irks me in throbb fics is when Theon has massive confidence issues of the “why would Robb want to be with me?”/“I’m not good enough for Robb”/general lack of self-worth vis-a-vis Robb.

(I get that that kind of thing makes some sense in post-Ramsay-Robb-survives-Redd-Wedding type AUs, because it does jive with Theon’s canonical overall insecurity post-Ramsay plus the self-guilt trips. But in most other scenarios it’s def a squick, including modern!AU post-Ramsay stuff where there wasn’t a canon-type “betrayal” or rift between them that could reasonably spur the canon-level self-guilt tripping. And outside of this just being being a personal squick/something that upsets me (in part because it often brushes too close to my humiliation hard squick), even from a canonical characterization framework I don’t think Theon would be insecure about this/in this way. He certainly has lots of insecurity issues, but there’s a difference between “I’m constantly doubting whether this person actually loves me” and “I’m constantly doubting that I’m worthy of being loved by this person.” I think Theon’s insecurity generally, and especially vis-a-vis Robb, is of the former brand, not the latter.)

I saw a thread on an ASOIAF forum that was like “Is it possible that Jenye W was raped [by Robb]?” And while I would say that the weight of the evidence falls on the side of “no” (at least not in a violent or easily recognizable even in that cultural setting as rape sense), I do find it telling in a sad sort of why that the fandom came soooo eagerly and decisively to Robb’s defense in this thread (the outrage! that someone would even suggest! *snort*) but then there are all these theories festering around about how Jeyne slipped him love potions/plotted with her mother/took advantage of him (somehow?) when there is just as little evidence to suggest this.

There's been an uptick in Theon-related discussion regarding like...what people think his ending will be or what they would want it to be (among other things). And it's been kinda interesting because...for some (a lot? idk) people they seem to really be attached or invested into the idea of Theon...mmm, I don't wanna say "continuing to suffer" because I don't think that's how at least some of these people mean it, but I guess...specifically not getting back the max of what he can, to put it kind of crudely. For example, being invested in the idea that he's not going to be able to wield conventional weapons/weapons of his choice (bow, sword) again, even though there have certainly been people with archery knowledge/experience who have expressed the opinion that that's something he should be able to still do if he's able to generally recover (i.e. gain back muscle mass, etc). There seem to be a variety of explanation for different people and different aspects - thematic, just what they think will actually happen, a desire for ~~Representation~~ of a particular type, etc. (I should note at this point that I'm speaking of opinions shared by people who self-identify as Theon fans or at least appear neutral on him.) And I mean that's all valid - personal predictions and preferences are just that. No one's preference is any better than anyone else's.

So, the point isn't about that - that's just the context. What I found interesting is my personal reaction of "NO" to this lol. Interesting, because it's kind of ironic. Usually I'm one of those people who really appreciates bittersweet and high-realism endings. For all the criticism to be made about S8 of GoT I thought the endings themselves were satisfactory exactly in that they seemed to give most of the characters (who survived anyway) some of what they've wanted, but no one really got a perfect fairytale ending or the maximum of what could have been available. And I would have been extremely disappointed if we got a bunch of Marriage & Babies Ever After endings as though this was a holiday romcom and not GoT. But, I digress. The point isn't the specific GoT endings, but just the fact that I don't require super happy endings to be satisfied, especially in something like ASOIAF, which is a canon that never made those kinds of promises narratively, so to speak. Usually it's other people moaning about not getting the happy ending they wanted and me going, "finally, some variety."

And yet. This time. With Theon specifically... Like, look I know GRRM isn't gonna give us this, but my preference would be for the max happy ending possible. I don't know if that's because even the best ending available for Theon within any realistic bounds is going to be bittersweet by just necessity (the trauma will have long-lasting effects even with the best outcomes; lots of physical things will never be regained or regained fully, etc). Maybe it's that. Maybe because I can't see any fulfillment in a story arch (esp for a fave) that goes Things Suck > Things Suck a TON more > things continue to Suck, less than at the last stage but probably more than at the start. When things already start with Things Suck, I'd rather it end with Things Still Kinda Suck But They're Getting Better And Settling Out At Generally OK? And like...even that is kind of a "maybe" for him at the best outcomes. So yea I want the "small" things for him - getting his hair color back, being able to use his bow again - and the somewhat bigger things - building a strong sibling relationship with Asha, getting a place or importance and meaning within the social/political environment of the Iron Islands (not as attached to whether he rules or not - I'm actually not sure that he'd be happy ruling or even if he ever would have been even pre-Ramsay), yes being able to functionally live with the PTSD ffs, and hell why not let's throw "finding romantic love" in there as well, although I don't really care about that as much in a canonical framework. I have some theories as to why but I can't say I can exactly pinpoint why I'd want Theon especially and specifically to be the "things will get better" storyline endgame (as opposed to other faves I have, though I want good things for them too ideally, and regardless of whether I think we'll actually get this). And...idk...aside from personal preferences, it seems like a good enough thematic ending too. Like I know that Theon's story is meant to be a tragedy in a lot of ways but...IDK. I guess I find tragedies and tragic ending more satisfying when they don't already start at a place that makes me wanna cry.

Theon:

Peter:

Me: 😭😭😭

I was reading a forum thread that was like “if Theon had returned to Robb instead of defecting what would his position have been in Robb’s forces?” and the overwhelming majority of replies speculated a rather…bleak future for Theon. The most pessimistic suggested that Theon would basically be a POW, either literally or effectively (i.e. with limited movement potential, always watched, never fully trusted by anyone or with anything important). (I’m excluding the couple of grim outliers who suggested even that Robb’s bannermen would demand Theon’s execution and Robb would do it.) The most optimistic ranged out to him having a fairly high ranking post (Captain of the archers or Master of ships if the North got a navy) or otherwise a (puppet) Lord of the Iron Islands, installed after Balon’s defeat/death, but having little respect for the Northerners (because lbr he never had any and was unlikely to gain any) and would be despised (understandably) by his own people. Also probably looked down on by everyone everywhere for turning against his blood family because these people tend to be these kinds of hypocrites. Some in-between things were suggested, including kind of humiliating things like being relegated to Robb’s personal guard but not really having independent command due to lack of trust, etc. (We’re not even touching the personal toll on Theon re: going against his own family/people.)

And the thing is…I don’t really disagree with the overwhelming majority of these opinions. There are literally zero good options for Theon in this situation, and going back to Robb is something that would have pleased the audience, not something that would have objectively been good or easy for him or obviously the right choice. And, as we see, people actually understand that (even if they refuse to admit it when asked directly).

And yet, everyone then turns around and bitches about how awful Theon’s decision to defect to his family was. How it was such an obvious choice to stay loyal to Robb.

I can’t tell if I want to cry or laugh more.