alley_skywalker | Entries tagged with fandom: game of thrones

Several months ago I had posted about wanting to do a meta regarding two Theon & Robb scenes on the show: the first, the scene where they argue about calling the banners in the woods – the scene that gave us the (in)famous “not your duty, not your house” line – and the second, their last scene together, in which Theon presents the Pyke plan (and Robb in the end agrees). This got long and maybe more complicated than I had initially thought/intended, but here we are. .

What struck me initially was how visually similar these scenes are – albeit some of the parallels are anti-parallels/mirrors.

Theon and Robb are the only two people really “present” in the scene – in essence they’re alone. Bran rides around them in the first scene but he’s not part of their conversation at all and he fades more and more out of frame as their argument continues. (In the second scene, you also get the sense initially that there are soldiers/people milling around in the background though they fade out quickly, too.)
Both scenes are outside and in a forested area. (There’s a tent in the second scene but it’s fully open and they’re standing at the entrance, with the characters and the camera facing out.)
Robb and Theon spend both conversations standing/sitting shoulder-to-shoulder and turn to face each other over their shoulders.
The scenes are both filmed from behind/behind and over their shoulders. (To me it gives a bit of a sense of the audience sort of eavesdropping/peeping into these significant and private moments between them.

The very first shot of both conversations is from behind, with both of them facing outward:

Incidentally, this is also the position of the characters and camera during the first line of both conversations. Theon has the first line in both. (“When are you going to tell him?” / “A word, Your Grace?”)

The second “shot” and second line are Robb’s. (“Not now.” / “You don’t have to call me Your Grace when no one’s around.”) Then Theon with the response.

The first scene does have this kind of upward angle that the second doesn’t, but it switches to a closer shot of Theon a couple of lines later. And it’s still this from-behind-over-the-shoulder shot.

Then, of course, you have the inverse-parallels/mirrors. Robb is on the right in the first scene and on the left in the second. The first scene is in the morning/during the day while the second is during the evening/night. (With the second mirror being the significant one, IMO, as we’ll see later.)

It could be a coincidence. It looks pretty intentional to me, but you could say, after all there are only so many settings to work with here and only so many camera angles to use with two people having a conversation (not that Theon and Robb have too many in private – there’s only one other one). But once we start going into the content/non-visual elements, we get even more interesting similarities:

Aside from the fact that Theon starts both conversations, the first conversation is only one line longer – 10 instead of 9 (by “line” I mean here any segment where one character is speaking uninterrupted by the other character, even if he takes pauses).

Here are the two conversations side by side. Robb’s lines are in red; Theon’s – in blue. These are transcribed literally, without indicating pauses or emphasis in tone, etc.

The two conversations are also structured similarly, although each runs a unique course. Step one: Theon initiates a conversation that’s likely to be difficult. In the first scene we already know that, because clearly the situation created by Jaime and the attack on Ned is a difficult one. The second, it’s signaled by Theon’s formality, the use of Robb’s title. (And the fact that he downs his drink before going to talk to Robb to begin with.)

Step two: Robb deflects. In the first instance: “Not now” and “you’re talking about war” – i.e. this is above my paygrade, man. In the second: banter.

Step three: Theon gets back on track: “I’m talking about justice” / “the Lannisters will reject your terms.” Which Robb accepts in both cases but isn’t very willing to engage with. (“Only the Lord of Winterfell can call the banners” = what do you expect from me? / “of course they are” – acceptance without much of a plan moving forward.)

Four: Theon presses for action and presents a direct target – explains why the situation is untenable and singles out Jaime as a perpetrator that needs to be brought to heal before he can escape justice vs. presents the Pyke plan as a solution for the need to take KL.

Five: Robb objects – how do you expect me to march on Casterly Rock? / Those men fought against my father!

Six: Theon’s final appeal.

These scenes run in such exquisite parallel to each other than it feels nearly intentional. They feel like bookends. To wit it makes sense that the first is in the morning (in the scene directly before it, Hodor wakes Bran up from a dream) and the second in the evening. But what are they bookending? What is the point?

The first conversation here isn’t Theon and Robb’s very first scene together. These aren’t their only two scenes alone together (there’s also the scene after Robb tells Luwin to call the banners). Although it is their first scene in private (relatively) together, but that doesn’t seem significant enough. So what are they bookending?

The end.

The end of Theon and Robb’s relationship as they’d known it, but without either of them realizing it at first. That first conversation is the start of the end, and the last one is the end. Although neither the audience, nor maybe even Theon (and certainly not Robb) know it yet.

So, lets back up.

I’ve always struggled a little to trace the trajectory of the degradation of Robb and Theon’s relationship on the show – when you first start to try and analyze it, you end up with whiplash. In the books things are a little easier – both because they’re vaguer and they’re more linear.

In the books, we don’t have Robb or Theon’s POVs – to the extent we have Theon’s it’s only postfact, not during any time when they’re actually interacting. We see very few direct interaction between them and those are filtered through other characters, so we don’t see body language or small looks between them or anything else of the sort unless other characters feel it important to comment on, which they often don’t. Therefore, there’s a lot of room for speculation and individual readings of their relationship. We find out from Theon’s POV later that he felt a lot of affection for Robb, but to what extent that was reciprocated and/or to what extent they managed to channel that into an actual friendship is a little open ended.

Because of their lack of interaction, it’s not that hard to imagine a slow emotional distancing between them, even if you think they’re close in AGOT. The Bran incident happens – a clear escalation of “put away your sword, Greyjoy” (imperiously) – then, Robb continues to generally emotionally pull away from everyone, even his own mother. We never see Theon try to joke around with Robb again the way he does when they ride through Winter Town with Bran in AGOT. We find out from Theon that he and Robb never talked out the Bran Incident. Etcetera. It’s not that difficult to imagine an emotional distancing between them that then comes to its natural resolution when Theon has to make his choice on Pyke. Nor is there a specific moment of choice as there appears to be on the show – he just kind of slides into it between chapters.

The show is more difficult to parse. Theon and Robb still don’t have a lot of scenes together, but because it’s a visual medium, we don’t need other characters to tell us what they’re doing to see it. They’re always standing together, they’re always giving each other little looks. We see how Theon looks at Robb. ~~(Ask me one day about how I’m pretty sure Alfie was lowkey playing unrequited love.)~~ We get to see Theon tell Robb to call the banners. Theon’s book line re: standing by the Starks in war, said to Cat, is changed to a line said directly to Robb. Also, unlike in the books, where Robb is surrounded by many councilors and advisors even before going to war, Theon appears to be Robb’s only real confidant aside from his mother in the show. (E.g. he tells Luwin to call the banners, but never really consults him. That’s a conversation he has with Theon and apparently Theon alone.) We can tell there’s a close relationship there. (There is also the confirmation from Robb to Talisa later on.)

Worse, while the Bran incident still happens, and you can make the argument that Robb becomes entirely preoccupied with the war and we see him consulting far more with Cat than with Theon once they march… The show then throws us the curve ball of the “now and always” and oath swearing nonsense in the King in the North scene. I won’t go into the details of how much I hate this change ~~(a lot)~~ and why, but I’ll say that it always felt not just horribly OOC for Theon as he is in the books, but also inconsistent for Theon’s character arch within the show.

How does he go from that to burning the letter in S2? We think of Theon burning the letter to Robb as this big turning point, and in many ways it is. But as far as Theon & Robb are concerned, it’s really the finale. It’s the logical conclusion. Those cards were already down.

It’s emotionally confusing initially because they have so few interaction between the KITN scene and Theon’s drama on Pyke – really the only significant one is this conversation about the Pyke plan. So if we view their relationship as being on the upswing starting from after the Bran incident through the KITN scene and into Pyke, then Theon’s decision is disorienting. Not completely illogical – all the same issues he’s had re: the Starks still apply, but its more like a rug pull than a catharsis.

And yet, the structure and visuals of the letter burning scene feel more like a catharsis. A heartbreaking one, sure, but this shot feels like a logical ending to an arch, a final scene in a drama, intensified by the fact that the very next scene is Theon’s “baptism.” A rebirth symbolism, complete with Greyjoy banners flapping in the wind and triumphant music.

It also feels strange to have the Bran Incident and the “not your duty, not your house” and the general tension of their relationship in that section be so disjointed from this last part if we consider it as having been forgotten or overwritten by scenes like the KITN scene. Robb and Theon never talk about it. Unlike in the books, where Theon connects back to the Bran Incident within his POV, he never brings it up here with anyone or in any way. It makes little sense emotionally, unless those two scenes are an integral part of this arch (spoiler: they are).

I’d posit that the primary arch of Theon and Robb’s relationship on the show is a dying. The “not your duty, not your house” scene is an Inciting Incident and the true start of that decline, though we see little tensions and harbingers of it before. (The first time I watched S1 was before I read any of the books and my reactions to that “put your sword away” / “I take orders from your father not you” exchange was “wow…do these guys really dislike each other? So much tension! Will they be antagonists?”) In order to heighten the tragedy, we need to see them a little beforehand – happy at the feast, joking at the barber’s, Theon promising support to Robb in the godswood (this scene has its counterpart too!)… After the “not your duty, not your house” scene (and the immediately following Bran Incident as reinforcement), what follows is Theon’s desperate attempt to prove himself worthy of Robb’s reciprocity, of belonging with the Starks after all.

He wins a False Victory in the KITN scene by eliciting a public promise of brotherhood from Robb – though Robb delivers it flatly and distractedly, and must be prompted into it. Then Theon goes all in. He makes a formal oath. It’s an echo of his promise in the godswood from before: “if it come to [war], you know I’ll stand behind you.” A promise he’d made prior to the “not your duty, not your house scene.” Before the First Rejection. In the KITN scene he makes it again, but more formally, more publicly, with greater repercussions, after multiple smaller shows of loyalty and devotion. He’s gone all in – he’s given Robb everything he possibly ever could. But we all know that, narratively, after the False Victory comes the Darkest Hour.

The Pyke plan conversation is also a test. A test Robb fails, perhaps because he doesn’t understand that it’s a test. It’s the second, and final, rejection. It’s after this scene that Theon has all his answers. The rest is mere circumstances, a ticking time bomb. But for Robb and Theon this is the end.

Remember how we talked about the conversations in these two scenes running structurally in parallel? And the final “step”/section was what I called Theon’s last appeal?

In the first conversation it’s shorter and entirely unsuccessful. (Robb then has the final say, and it’s to remind Theon of his place as Not A Stark ™.) In the second, it’s longer, Theon has the last say of it, and from the next scene with Cat, we see that Robb has agreed, although we don’t actually see him voice his agreement to Theon. Interestingly enough, Theon makes two actual arguments in his first “final appeal” – 1) the Lannisters have already started the war and 2) it’s Robb’s duty to act for his father when Ned is unable to. He makes three arguments in the second, successful, appeal: 1) my people are your natural allies in wanting independence from the South, not your enemies, 2) my father will listen to me because I’m his son and 3) I’m not a Stark, but I was raised in your father’s ways and am tied to him just as you are.

Loosely, the first two arguments can be seen as symmetrical in a meta way too. The first in High Politics and strategy – the Lannister have started the war; the ironborn want independence from the South so an alliance makes sense. The second is about duty and family generally – Robb has a duty to represent his family; Theon’s father will listen to him because he’s Balon’s blood.

And the final accord – voiced by Robb in the first conversation and by Theon in the second? Is about the Starks. And about Theon’s place among them.

Theon makes no argument on this account in the first scene – it’s Robb who clearly shows him his place: “And it’s not your duty, because it’s not your House.” Read: you are not a Stark, so stay out of it. Theon stares at him in hurt shock. He hadn’t anticipated this at all. He loses the argument.

Theon forecloses this objection in the second conversation by making an argument out of it: “I’m not a Stark. I know that. But your father raised me to be an honorable man. We can avenge him together.” Read: I know my place. I know I’m not a Stark. But I can still be useful and helpful to you despite that. And Robb, his objections foreclosed, accepts.

So, what’s the test?

Theon pauses. Clearly and audibly. He starts with looking down at the ground, apparently unsure for a moment, and as he says “I’m not a Stark, I know that” he looks up at Robb. This is what you told me. Is it still true? Then he hesitates. He doesn’t want to make this third argument – he shouldn’t have to. But with no reassurance forthcoming, he plunges ahead. He wins by losing. He’s still not a Stark. And he still must argue/prove that that doesn’t matter. He must know his place and he must prove his usefulness despite it. Nothing has changed.

Can Robb be expected to jump in with a no, it’s ok in the three seconds that Theon gives him on the spot? Maybe not. But it’s never re-addressed. The last shot is Robb’s silent consideration and off-screen acceptance. Theon doesn’t “win” here because Robb’s changed his mind about Theon’s “status” vis-à-vis himself or his family. Theon’s just better prepared with a justification for why, despite being an “outsider,” this can still be his business.

It’s a status quo Robb is ok with. But Theon isn’t. Maybe he doesn’t fully realize it until he’s forced to make his choice on Pyke. But what was started in the morning in a conversation in the woods, comes full circle, and ends, in the evening in a conversation in the woods. They also physically switch places in these scenes, which seems random at first, and yet: The first time, Robb teaches Theon where he belongs; the second time – Theon takes Robb’s place, physically and in dialogue, showing he’s learned his lesson. (Hauntingly, brings to mind: “I trained him, he was a slow learner, but he learned.”) The

These scenes are visually and structurally bookends because they bookend the journey Theon takes from his wake-up call of being told, don’t be mistaken, you don’t belong, to accepting it. The part in between is his desperate fight to prove himself (and Robb) wrong. But because this is a tragedy, he fails. And having failed, he must accept it.

And when he goes to Pyke, he goes with that rejection complete, knowing he could “never be a Stark” – he’d given Robb everything, remember, and got the same answer as before – and not a priority to Robb. He could not possibly build his identity or his future on that. He had to do it somewhere else.

Theon wrote the letter, but by then, there was no real choice but to burn it.

Obligatory disclaimer that people can write whatever they want in fanfic. But I also get to complain about shit on my own blog lol.

A thing I realized really irks me in throbb fics is when Theon has massive confidence issues of the “why would Robb want to be with me?”/“I’m not good enough for Robb”/general lack of self-worth vis-a-vis Robb.

(I get that that kind of thing makes some sense in post-Ramsay-Robb-survives-Redd-Wedding type AUs, because it does jive with Theon’s canonical overall insecurity post-Ramsay plus the self-guilt trips. But in most other scenarios it’s def a squick, including modern!AU post-Ramsay stuff where there wasn’t a canon-type “betrayal” or rift between them that could reasonably spur the canon-level self-guilt tripping. And outside of this just being being a personal squick/something that upsets me (in part because it often brushes too close to my humiliation hard squick), even from a canonical characterization framework I don’t think Theon would be insecure about this/in this way. He certainly has lots of insecurity issues, but there’s a difference between “I’m constantly doubting whether this person actually loves me” and “I’m constantly doubting that I’m worthy of being loved by this person.” I think Theon’s insecurity generally, and especially vis-a-vis Robb, is of the former brand, not the latter.)

I was reading a forum thread that was like “if Theon had returned to Robb instead of defecting what would his position have been in Robb’s forces?” and the overwhelming majority of replies speculated a rather…bleak future for Theon. The most pessimistic suggested that Theon would basically be a POW, either literally or effectively (i.e. with limited movement potential, always watched, never fully trusted by anyone or with anything important). (I’m excluding the couple of grim outliers who suggested even that Robb’s bannermen would demand Theon’s execution and Robb would do it.) The most optimistic ranged out to him having a fairly high ranking post (Captain of the archers or Master of ships if the North got a navy) or otherwise a (puppet) Lord of the Iron Islands, installed after Balon’s defeat/death, but having little respect for the Northerners (because lbr he never had any and was unlikely to gain any) and would be despised (understandably) by his own people. Also probably looked down on by everyone everywhere for turning against his blood family because these people tend to be these kinds of hypocrites. Some in-between things were suggested, including kind of humiliating things like being relegated to Robb’s personal guard but not really having independent command due to lack of trust, etc. (We’re not even touching the personal toll on Theon re: going against his own family/people.)

And the thing is…I don’t really disagree with the overwhelming majority of these opinions. There are literally zero good options for Theon in this situation, and going back to Robb is something that would have pleased the audience, not something that would have objectively been good or easy for him or obviously the right choice. And, as we see, people actually understand that (even if they refuse to admit it when asked directly).

And yet, everyone then turns around and bitches about how awful Theon’s decision to defect to his family was. How it was such an obvious choice to stay loyal to Robb.

I can’t tell if I want to cry or laugh more.

...after Ned is executed, if Theon had gone to Robb and was like “hey you know, I’m not really feeling this whole war thing and stuff. I just wanna go home and see my mom and sister and whatnot. I know your dad had a whole agenda with me but you don’t, right?” do people really think Robb would have been like “yea, man. I mean I could really use a friend out here, you know? But you’re free to go home if that’s your choice.”

Yara is such a relateable older sister, because she’s always giving Theon shit, but she’s also completely ride or die for him.

Well damn. You know, I have people on my dash and RL circle whose opinions vary on the finale. Some hate it some are satisfied with it. It had the same pacing issues of the second half of the season, maybe even the entire season. Really, there should have been 9 seasons not 8. But I also heard so much crap about this episode that I expected some complete other level of badness from it. And actually…..I enjoyed it. It wasn’t amazing or anything but I felt really satisfied at the end of it. I came away from 8.5 feeling kind of underwhelmed and like I really needed time to process but this episode…. given that one ep was all we were going to get to wrap things up? It worked for me in the large strokes.

( SPOILERS )

Putting aside for a moment ships, character arches and other complaints that people have about Jaime and Cersei’s death, I think part of why it felt sort of so anticlimactic and inspired all the “rocks fell’ jokes, is because the lead up to their actual death scene wasn’t given enough dramatic effect. We get a lot of Jaime trying to get to Cersei and a bit of Cersei trying to make an escape, but once they were together the tension and the hope – no matter how much a pretense – and the drama needed to be ratcheted up. (They also could have lit the damn thing better, but that’s another story.) Like, all other context aside, what I thought in part made Jorah’s and Theon’s death sequences so gut-wrenching, and made Sandor’s so dramatic and more satisfying, is the drawn out lead up sequences. Sandor fights for his life like hell. Jorah and Theon aren’t just fighting, they also got that lovely piano layover and muted volume that just screams desperation and tragedy.

Jaime and Cersei’s attempted escape was very short lived. Like, “we’re going now,” “oh ooops guess we can’t,” “time to die.” We needed to see them fight – in this case run – for it. To really be drawn into the drama of the attempted escape, that bit of hope, the tension of “oh shit, is it gonna work?” even as the music and editing might cue us in that, nope it won’t. I think it would have been cool to have several parallel shots of Cersei and Jaime running through the tunnels, stumbling, grabbing each other’s hands, and shots of Dany flying around destroying everything. Muffle the sound and make it echo-y, cue some soft tragic music. Cut back and forth a few times the way that we got the parallel of Arya getting swept up by the crowd and the Hound getting beat up by the Mountain. Then at the end, just as they’re about to turn a corner, Jaime makes an expressive gesture, Here! They turn the corner and – nope. Wall of rocks. Jaime just kinda freezes, somewhere deep down he knew they weren’t getting out. Cersei, more desperate, as she was in that scene, slams against the rocks, trying to claw her way through them almost. Jaime grabs her hands, pulls her away, and they have the dialogue as in canon. One last cut away to Dany zeroing in on the last tower or something of the Red Keep, the dragon opens its mouth—Down below, Cersei collapses into Jaime’s arms and they hold each other for a few seconds as the music swells and everything collapse around them.

I mean, look. Maybe I’m overdramatic. I’m certainly not a film director. But I feel like we really needed to feel that adrenaline of an escape attempt with them first, to get that high drama and have a few moments to process the tragedy of it – as romantic tragedy is clearly what they were going for. What we got was kinda rushed (I mean the entire ep was…) and there wasn’t enough breathing room to let things sink in. Especially when we’re saying goodbye to two major/main characters. Because whatever else was bad in the execution of Jaime going back to KL, the themes of them dying together weren’t wrong per se. Even lots of people who don’t ship Jaime/Cersei thought it would make sense for them to die together. Jaime and Cersei as each other’s magnet has been a theme. Them being together against the world, even when that leads to shit, is a longstanding theme. Even them wanting to escape to a better life together and being incapable of it has been an on-and-off theme for their relationship overall. I really do think what we were cheated of most for the death scene/sequences specifically is the dramatic effect.

Yea this episode was pretty messy in a lot of ways – I thought that people were exaggerating because their ship got screwed or their fave turned out to not be a hero. I’ve actually been fine with the way most of the other stuff payed out. The Dorne plot was probably the closest that got to this level of “ok this was not very well thought through” in my personal opinion. I really think that most of the problems were caused by the feeling that everything was rushed and without proper payoff or setup. A lot of the same end results would have been fine and felt organic if they were developed over a larger number of episodes. Either this season would have needed to be extra long or we’d need a slightly shorter season 8 and then another short season 9. I don’t think it even needed to be multiple seasons but just some more breathing room for all the characters.

( SPOILERS )

See this is the part I don’t agree with and why I get annoyed at all the talk about Theon’s story being a “redemption arch.” Now, arguably, he had other things to atone for - such as the murder of the farm boys. But no one is actually talking about that when they talk about Theon needing redemption or when they say they hate/hated him. They’re talking about ~~their faves~~ the Starks. And I just…I just don’t fucking agree that someone owes loyalty and gratitude to the people who first helped re-subjugate his people after their bid for independence from an imperialistic power and then took him, a child, from his home and family to be a hostage who could be executed at any moment if his father steps out of line.

(Yes, they treated him decent. Yes, Balon’s an asshole. But that doesn’t change the principle of the thing. It’s not like it wasn’t advantageous for the Starks to form a “polite fiction” around Theon. Rodrik posits that if Theon was a prisoner Ned should have kept him “chained to a dungeon wall.” But can you imagine that? The honorable Lord Stark who not only takes a 10 year old hostage but also keeps him chained up in a dungeon. Sure. And really, Robb is the only one who seems to genuinely care at all about Theon. As for Balon, Theon, who clearly has bad memories of his brothers, doesn’t seem to have such of his parents and is genuinely surprised that his father doesn’t come out to greet him when he lands on the iron islands as Robb’s emissary. His mother loves him, so does his sister. Does he maybe owe some personal loyalty to Robb? Because he encouraged and facilitated Robb’s affection? Maybe. But also, how honorable, exactly, would it have been for Theon - Theon who identifies as a Greyjoy first and foremost, who is a Greyjoy, in a culture where family name and clan membership are extremely important - to have continued to support Robb and turn against his family?

Were there ways for him to still defect to his family but minimize the “betrayal” of Robb? Well, yes, he could have stayed away from Winterfell. But, tbh, having chosen his family and with his father’s plans what they were, Theon would have almost certainly had to fight directly against Robb or Robb’s interests eventually. And tbh, I don’t think people would hate him any less even if he hadn’t gone after Winterfell itself. Because he still wouldn’t have chosen ~~their faves~~ the Starks.

Seriously. Even with Robb…if Robb had suddenly been faced for whatever reason with a choice between his family and Theon would he have chosen Theon? Would he though? And would anyone blame him for choosing his family? Imagine the AU where Balon decides to sacrifice his youngest son. Decides that Theon is lost to him anyway, Asha/Yara will make a fine-enough heir, and he really wants to try at another rebellion. Balon does what he wasn’t supposed to do. Ned Stark, with a heavy heart, realizes that if his authority and warnings are ever going to mean anything again, he will need to stay true to his word and execute Theon. Robb - let’s give him the benefit of the doubt here - dismayed and distraught, throws a fit. He argues and pleads with his father not to do it but Ned lectures him on why it’s necessary and, finally, Robb gives in. He stands by as Ned executes Theon and later fights alongside his father to quell the new Greyjoy rebellion. Is Robb now a traitor? Would anyone in the fandom hate him?)

I really…to me, Theon’s story isn’t really about redemption or atonement. It’s more about identity and self-acceptance and how to function in a world that’s put you in an impossible, painful position. How to make choices that turn out to make things worse for you rather than better and realize you should have handled things differently and live with the that and move on from that. Theon has done some really bad things (as stated above) and he’s far from the only character in this series with shitty-actions baggage, including well liked characters. He could have done a better job of balancing his loyalties to his family and his personal loyalty/relationship with Robb. He probably needed to grow out of his arrogance/bravado streak that he has at the start (though that’s also primarily driven by deep insecurity due to his situation). But I don’t think, in the context of this world especially, that any of that requires the kind of major redemption arch (that ends in ultimate self-sacrifice) that people seem to think is needed.

GoT 8.4 thoughts/feelings (SPOILERS).

( SPOILERS )

GoT 8.3 thoughts and feelings (MAJOR SPOILERS)…

( ALL THE SPOILERS )

As I emotionally prepare for my NOTP to possibly become canon, I will say... Cersei will always be Jaime’s The One. They shouldn’t be in a relationship - not even bc they’re siblings, they’ve got bigger ass problems than that (tho that clearly doesn’t help) - but shouldn’t/can’t be together =/= have the deepest and most emotionally intense connection. Even if Jaime was to end up with someone I ship him with (like Sansa) it wouldn’t matter. Jaime might be ready to walk away from her for the sake of his own sanity, even kill her for the greater good, but she’s still The One.

Ep 8.1

Am I tripping or are the beginning credits a bit different this season??
That first 10 mins of every new season you spend recalling what happened last season that everyone is where they are now…
Dany and Sansa meeting - yoooo. That is one really shippable/supercharged moment. (Not even my ship at all but DAMN.)
Little Lord Umber is adorable but also…like…terrifying that this little kid is in charge of war preparations? Isn’t there an adult to be regent or something?
This show is so pretty, tbh. Like that Arya and Jon scene is so #aesthetic.
Theon and ~~Asha~~ Yara! <33
“Without her we don’t stand a chance.” Like, you’re not necessarily wrong, Jon, but I’d have less of an urge to roll my eyes if you weren’t fucking her xD
- (Ooooh and Sansa sees your shit, Jon!)
JAIMEEEEEEE!!!

Ep 8.2

Podric has really grown up into a fine young man.
Every Sans & Dany scene is so supercharged. (I kinda like it.)
Love love love seeing Sansa in a commanding position. It’s really such a nice payoff after everything that’s happened to her.
Jaime and Tyrion warm my heart <3 (Too bad it won’t be such easy sailing in the books for them given what happens at their parting…)
Jon, telling Daenerys about your heritage and all right before this bigass battle is MAYBE not the best idea. Like, everyone needs to be keeping their head in the game, not angsting over their inheritance rights.
So much fanservice in this ep - Arya/Gendry, Jaime knighting Brienne ~~(still will never ship this, but that’s neither here nor there)~~…
IDK, I thought the sweetness of Sansa’s and Theon’s reunion was a little sudden. Given that Theon turned against her family and overran her castle and all that…

Things that have been on my mind….

I’m not really sure why people are so surprised that it took Jaime all this time to finally leave Cersei. He’s spent his entire life loving her – as a sister, as a romantic/sexual partner. She’s been the world to him. You don’t just…you can’t just turn those feelings off. It’s not a fucking light switch. And toxic relationships can be hard to get out of. First you have to recognize it’s toxic. Then you have to accept that it’s toxic and that you can’t fix it. That’s a process, and it’s not always a linear one. Not to mention that Cersei is manipulative as hell – she knew how to get Jaime to stay (like with waiting for a good moment to tell him she’s pregnant; she knows how much family means to him.) I think he’s had the understanding that things were beyond repair for a some time now, but it’s finding the strength to walk away, it’s clawing out of denial, it’s getting through that first stage of grief…it takes a fuckton of time.
And aside from just that, there’s another layer to this. Mainly this: Jaime didn’t really have anywhere else to go. I mean, ok, maybe, he could have walked away completely. Gone to the Rock, taken the Lanniester troops with him… But, two things:
- First, at this point the Lannisters aren’t powerful alone and Jaime doesn’t have the political skill or desire to pull the kind of feat he would need to pull to get enough allies behind him for the House to survive without being linked to (the power of) the Crown. And Jaime cares about family and the Lannister name. Not in the psychotic, obsessive way Cersei does but it means a lot to him. (Hell, it even means something to Tyrion.) Separating from the Crown would have been disastrous for both.
- The second thing, and probably more likely here, is that Jaime hadn’t quite built up the resolve to walk away from Cersei before Daenerys and her dragons happened. And once they did? I mean, look, he can see Cersei’s is crazy or at least getting there. But he was clearly having some traumatic flashbacks of the Mad King when Daenerys was burning his army. So…he’s got a choice between two mad queens. Except one is also his sister and (up until now, anyway) the love of his life (and then the mother of his future child) and the other is a ~foreign queen~ and a stranger and woman who clearly (or at least likely) wants the destruction of his entire family. Like, can you really blame him for holding on to Cersei in those circumstances?
- But then in the last episode the stakes change. Suddenly, it’s not just Cersei vs. Daenerys, it’s not just House Lannister at stake, or even his own life. It’s the life of all of Westeros. A battle of life and death. Once the stakes are existential, Jaime has a reason to walk away, a reason he can live with under all circumstances and outcomes.
I understand why Jon feels the way he does re: Theon and Theon taking Winterfell, but I’m a kinda annoyed that it seems like we’re supposed to agree with him. Because, like…no? Theon is a Greyjoy, was always a Greyjoy. Ned may treated him well, but Theon was still the Stark’s hostage and I doubt that he wouldn’t have been executed if the Greyjoys had stepped out of line. And I doubt this fact was lost on even a pretty young Theon, not to mention a teenage/adult Theon. He didn’t owe the Starks shit re: personal loyalty. (Bannerman-wise is a different story maybe, but that’s not why Jon’s pissed. He’s making it more personal, and that’s where it goes off the rails.) Also, who was more of a father to Theon, Ned or his real father, isn’t the only consideration. Like, Theon’s siblings (like Yara) are also his family. They count. He’s a Greyjoy.
And on the note of Theon – boy kicked ASS. Finally <3 (You’re doing great, love!)
I’m totally side-eying all the people who were just appalled at the very idea of Jaime/Cersei ~because incest and are now cheering their heads off for Jon/Daenerys. Like…so, can you stand incest or not? What’s the truth?
When the fuck are Tyrino and Jaime getting their hug? I They better get my their hug before this show ends, I s2g.

WARNING: Discussion of RAPE. Also spoilers.

Game of Thrones fandom is losing its shit overSansa’s rape.And I just…feel like people are not actually thinking. I’m especially baffled at the book readers. I can understand the reactions of show-only fans. This may in fact seem quite grotesque to them. Why all this misery? Why all the violence? But the book readers, the ones constantly shouting about how much better the books are than the show, need to take a step back. After all, they were fine with all the violence and rape in the books. Or maybe they weren’t fine, but they kept reading.

Sansa is one of my favorite characters. And what she had to go through was terrible. But terrible things happening to good characters, or main character, or prominent characters is not the hallmark of a bad narrative. It is also true that GoT has used sexual violence perhaps a little too excessively, ie: more than strictly needed to establish the realities of the universe. However, ASOIAF isn’t exactly sunshine and fuzzy bunnies. There is a LOT of, arguably unnecessary, violence and sexual violence there too. It’s true that some things have a greater effect on the consumer in visual form than written form, but they are still the SAME thing. Anyone who had read any of the ASOIAF books before starting GoT should have known what they were getting into.

Does the show have an obligation to do better than its source material from a social justice perspective (or any other)? No. I honestly don’t think it does. In the same way we don’t expect fanfiction to thrown canon out the window or to improve on it. GoT isn’t ASOIAF fanfic (although…lately, with the huge plot changes, it looks a little more like it) but it’s also not an independent show. It’s not even a separate part of a franchise. It’s an ADAPTATION. So can we really blame it for sticking to things/the sorts of things that happened in its source text?

This post isn’t super organized or an essay or anything. I don’t have the energy for that. But I did want to put down my thoughts on a few of the arguments I’ve been hearing the most.
( Read more... )

Honestly, this scene is not nearly as problematic as people are making it out to be. You know what rape scene was so much worse in the sense of “totally unnecessary”? That Jaime/Cersei one. Because that one actually fucked with characterization and relationship dynamics. And yet, somehow, people got over that one quickly enough. It certainly did not cause an equivalent ragequit uproar. And I do have to wonder why.