Sansa's rape
May. 22nd, 2015 01:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alley_skywalkerWARNING: Discussion of RAPE. Also spoilers.
Game of Thrones fandom is losing its shit overSansa’s rape.And I just…feel like people are not actually thinking. I’m especially baffled at the book readers. I can understand the reactions of show-only fans. This may in fact seem quite grotesque to them. Why all this misery? Why all the violence? But the book readers, the ones constantly shouting about how much better the books are than the show, need to take a step back. After all, they were fine with all the violence and rape in the books. Or maybe they weren’t fine, but they kept reading.
Sansa is one of my favorite characters. And what she had to go through was terrible. But terrible things happening to good characters, or main character, or prominent characters is not the hallmark of a bad narrative. It is also true that GoT has used sexual violence perhaps a little too excessively, ie: more than strictly needed to establish the realities of the universe. However, ASOIAF isn’t exactly sunshine and fuzzy bunnies. There is a LOT of, arguably unnecessary, violence and sexual violence there too. It’s true that some things have a greater effect on the consumer in visual form than written form, but they are still the SAME thing. Anyone who had read any of the ASOIAF books before starting GoT should have known what they were getting into.
Does the show have an obligation to do better than its source material from a social justice perspective (or any other)? No. I honestly don’t think it does. In the same way we don’t expect fanfiction to thrown canon out the window or to improve on it. GoT isn’t ASOIAF fanfic (although…lately, with the huge plot changes, it looks a little more like it) but it’s also not an independent show. It’s not even a separate part of a franchise. It’s an ADAPTATION. So can we really blame it for sticking to things/the sorts of things that happened in its source text?
This post isn’t super organized or an essay or anything. I don’t have the energy for that. But I did want to put down my thoughts on a few of the arguments I’ve been hearing the most.
Game of Thrones fandom is losing its shit overSansa’s rape.And I just…feel like people are not actually thinking. I’m especially baffled at the book readers. I can understand the reactions of show-only fans. This may in fact seem quite grotesque to them. Why all this misery? Why all the violence? But the book readers, the ones constantly shouting about how much better the books are than the show, need to take a step back. After all, they were fine with all the violence and rape in the books. Or maybe they weren’t fine, but they kept reading.
Sansa is one of my favorite characters. And what she had to go through was terrible. But terrible things happening to good characters, or main character, or prominent characters is not the hallmark of a bad narrative. It is also true that GoT has used sexual violence perhaps a little too excessively, ie: more than strictly needed to establish the realities of the universe. However, ASOIAF isn’t exactly sunshine and fuzzy bunnies. There is a LOT of, arguably unnecessary, violence and sexual violence there too. It’s true that some things have a greater effect on the consumer in visual form than written form, but they are still the SAME thing. Anyone who had read any of the ASOIAF books before starting GoT should have known what they were getting into.
Does the show have an obligation to do better than its source material from a social justice perspective (or any other)? No. I honestly don’t think it does. In the same way we don’t expect fanfiction to thrown canon out the window or to improve on it. GoT isn’t ASOIAF fanfic (although…lately, with the huge plot changes, it looks a little more like it) but it’s also not an independent show. It’s not even a separate part of a franchise. It’s an ADAPTATION. So can we really blame it for sticking to things/the sorts of things that happened in its source text?
This post isn’t super organized or an essay or anything. I don’t have the energy for that. But I did want to put down my thoughts on a few of the arguments I’ve been hearing the most.
“There was no need for Sansa to have been raped of all things.”
Wasn’t there? I mean, imagine it. Sansa marries Ramsy. Ramsy knows that in order for the marriage to be valid it must be consummated. Ramsy is also a sadistic fuck. There is no way Sansa actually wants to have sex with Ramsy.
So the only way that Sansa is NOT going to get raped is if Ramsy decides not to consummate their marriage. Does anyone think that would be even remotely in character?
I suppose it could have happened off-screen. Hidden away and only implied later on. But is this actually better? Does it make what happened to Sansa any less rape? Because if this is the problem, then the issue isn’t that Sansa was raped, the issue is that we were forced to see it. And that’s a whole different story and also not what everyone is mad about.
Note that the scene was not played to be sexy or for laughs or anything like that. It was meant to be awful. It did not focus on Ramsy’s power trip but on Sansa’s pain. (And Theon’s, who is also a victim in this whole mess.) We were asked to empathize with this character and wanting to hide away from that is an understandable reaction. But anyone having that reaction is not the show’s fault or responsibility.
“Sansa could have had agency! She could have talked her way out of it. Or just stabbed Ramsy! They’re taking away her agency, don’t you see?”
Ok, stop. How realistic is all this? And is Sansa’s agency really being taken away?
Sansa talking Ramsy out of consummating the marriage is ridiculous. Sansa is nowhere near that proficiency of manipulation and I doubt Ramsy is the sort who could be talked out of something he’s already decided on in the first place.
How would Sansa stabbing Ramsy go do you think? Even putting plot that needs to happen (I suppose, going by the books) aside and putting aside whether or not Sansa would resort to that sort of thing. How would this go? Do you really think she could get away with it? Does she have a reasonable expectation of getting away with it? In a castle full of armed Bolton men where she is basically a hostage (for now)? Sansa may lack a lot of things I doubt common sense is one of them.
Open resistance is also not in character for Sansa. And you know fucking what? That’s ok. That’s not how everyone choses to fight. It doesn’t make her less strong and it’s not a complete lack of agency. And speaking of agency…
Has Sansa really taken a step back? She certainly got feisty with Myranda in that earlier scene. But being catty to a serving girl is different than being catty to Ramsy or anyone else with actual power over her. Biding your time and seeming to surrender in order to survive until you have a chance to escape or fight back with odds on your side is A TACTIC. It can be a choice like any other. Sansa made the choice to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsy. Manipulative or not, Littlefinger did give her, at least seemingly, a choice. And she agreed, because this was a way for her to get her home back. By now, Sansa knows enough about life that she would have known that marriage = sex. Sex that she would not want, because the Boltons are her enemies at the least, and that it might not be pleasant. I suppose she could not expect how MUCH of a sadist Ramsy is, but I’m sure she knew she was making a gamble on her husband’s potential awfulness. It doesn’t make her experience any better or any less rape, to be clear, but it also doesn’t mean that she did not have agency coming into this situation. Sansa knows she has to lie low until she can find a way to strike at the Boltons when they least expect it. Having to suffer Ramsy’s awful treatment of, frankly, everyone is just another hurdle she has to face down on her journey. I really don’t think Sansa’s character development is in danger here.
“Ok, fine. The rape happened in the books. But it happened to Jeyne not Sansa.”
Ah yes, poor Jeyne. Whose only purpose seemed to be to be raped by Ramsy and then saved by Theon. Because this would have been so much better to see on your screen, right?
Ok, sure. We have more investment in Sansa because she’s a major character, we care about her. But is a woman getting raped any BETTER because we’re not as invested in the woman who was raped? It’s easier for us emotionally, but from an amorphous “treatment of women by the text” standpoint – is it?
And don’t tell me that if it had been Jeyne there would not be screaming about “they introduced a female character only to rape her!” But you can’t have it both ways, guys.
I suppose Ramsy didn’t have to marry anyone. Then there would be no poor girl for him to rape. But we can’t say for sure this was an option. Firstly, what to do with Theon’s plotline. Secondly, there would be other consequences to this Bolton-Stark marriage thing that we have not seen yet either in the show OR the books. We can’t say with any certainty that this would have been a valid option.
Also, from a tv-only standpoint, it makes sense for Sansa to take over this plotline. I balked a little at first because it was such a big change from the book but honestly? Even just from a structure perspective, Sansa would not have much to do in the Erie. But they couldn’t just cut her out completely because tv shows can’t/don’t just cut out major characters for the majority of a season. Inventing something completely out of left field like Jaime’s plotline may or may not have been plausible.
“They’re using this for Theon’s character development. Ew.”
Newsflash: Ramsy’s mistreatment of his new wife was used first and foremost for Theon’s character development/plot in the book. In fact, it was ALL about Theon there. It was even from Theon’s POV. So I don’t see why it’s a problem if Theon’s character arc/plot gets a shove from all of this in the show too.
Yet, it’s actually LESS likely that the situation will be ALL about Theon here BECAUSE Sansa is a central character. Sansa’s reactions, feelings and development will be center stage during the fallout because this plotline is actually about her in the show. She is a major character so the narrative cares about her and has time for her. So yea, Theon will “profit” character development wise, but he won’t be a complete narrative attention hog the way he was in the book. You can see that as an improvement, if you’d like.
Honestly, this scene is not nearly as problematic as people are making it out to be. You know what rape scene was so much worse in the sense of “totally unnecessary”? That Jaime/Cersei one. Because that one actually fucked with characterization and relationship dynamics. And yet, somehow, people got over that one quickly enough. It certainly did not cause an equivalent ragequit uproar. And I do have to wonder why.
Wasn’t there? I mean, imagine it. Sansa marries Ramsy. Ramsy knows that in order for the marriage to be valid it must be consummated. Ramsy is also a sadistic fuck. There is no way Sansa actually wants to have sex with Ramsy.
So the only way that Sansa is NOT going to get raped is if Ramsy decides not to consummate their marriage. Does anyone think that would be even remotely in character?
I suppose it could have happened off-screen. Hidden away and only implied later on. But is this actually better? Does it make what happened to Sansa any less rape? Because if this is the problem, then the issue isn’t that Sansa was raped, the issue is that we were forced to see it. And that’s a whole different story and also not what everyone is mad about.
Note that the scene was not played to be sexy or for laughs or anything like that. It was meant to be awful. It did not focus on Ramsy’s power trip but on Sansa’s pain. (And Theon’s, who is also a victim in this whole mess.) We were asked to empathize with this character and wanting to hide away from that is an understandable reaction. But anyone having that reaction is not the show’s fault or responsibility.
“Sansa could have had agency! She could have talked her way out of it. Or just stabbed Ramsy! They’re taking away her agency, don’t you see?”
Ok, stop. How realistic is all this? And is Sansa’s agency really being taken away?
Sansa talking Ramsy out of consummating the marriage is ridiculous. Sansa is nowhere near that proficiency of manipulation and I doubt Ramsy is the sort who could be talked out of something he’s already decided on in the first place.
How would Sansa stabbing Ramsy go do you think? Even putting plot that needs to happen (I suppose, going by the books) aside and putting aside whether or not Sansa would resort to that sort of thing. How would this go? Do you really think she could get away with it? Does she have a reasonable expectation of getting away with it? In a castle full of armed Bolton men where she is basically a hostage (for now)? Sansa may lack a lot of things I doubt common sense is one of them.
Open resistance is also not in character for Sansa. And you know fucking what? That’s ok. That’s not how everyone choses to fight. It doesn’t make her less strong and it’s not a complete lack of agency. And speaking of agency…
Has Sansa really taken a step back? She certainly got feisty with Myranda in that earlier scene. But being catty to a serving girl is different than being catty to Ramsy or anyone else with actual power over her. Biding your time and seeming to surrender in order to survive until you have a chance to escape or fight back with odds on your side is A TACTIC. It can be a choice like any other. Sansa made the choice to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsy. Manipulative or not, Littlefinger did give her, at least seemingly, a choice. And she agreed, because this was a way for her to get her home back. By now, Sansa knows enough about life that she would have known that marriage = sex. Sex that she would not want, because the Boltons are her enemies at the least, and that it might not be pleasant. I suppose she could not expect how MUCH of a sadist Ramsy is, but I’m sure she knew she was making a gamble on her husband’s potential awfulness. It doesn’t make her experience any better or any less rape, to be clear, but it also doesn’t mean that she did not have agency coming into this situation. Sansa knows she has to lie low until she can find a way to strike at the Boltons when they least expect it. Having to suffer Ramsy’s awful treatment of, frankly, everyone is just another hurdle she has to face down on her journey. I really don’t think Sansa’s character development is in danger here.
“Ok, fine. The rape happened in the books. But it happened to Jeyne not Sansa.”
Ah yes, poor Jeyne. Whose only purpose seemed to be to be raped by Ramsy and then saved by Theon. Because this would have been so much better to see on your screen, right?
Ok, sure. We have more investment in Sansa because she’s a major character, we care about her. But is a woman getting raped any BETTER because we’re not as invested in the woman who was raped? It’s easier for us emotionally, but from an amorphous “treatment of women by the text” standpoint – is it?
And don’t tell me that if it had been Jeyne there would not be screaming about “they introduced a female character only to rape her!” But you can’t have it both ways, guys.
I suppose Ramsy didn’t have to marry anyone. Then there would be no poor girl for him to rape. But we can’t say for sure this was an option. Firstly, what to do with Theon’s plotline. Secondly, there would be other consequences to this Bolton-Stark marriage thing that we have not seen yet either in the show OR the books. We can’t say with any certainty that this would have been a valid option.
Also, from a tv-only standpoint, it makes sense for Sansa to take over this plotline. I balked a little at first because it was such a big change from the book but honestly? Even just from a structure perspective, Sansa would not have much to do in the Erie. But they couldn’t just cut her out completely because tv shows can’t/don’t just cut out major characters for the majority of a season. Inventing something completely out of left field like Jaime’s plotline may or may not have been plausible.
“They’re using this for Theon’s character development. Ew.”
Newsflash: Ramsy’s mistreatment of his new wife was used first and foremost for Theon’s character development/plot in the book. In fact, it was ALL about Theon there. It was even from Theon’s POV. So I don’t see why it’s a problem if Theon’s character arc/plot gets a shove from all of this in the show too.
Yet, it’s actually LESS likely that the situation will be ALL about Theon here BECAUSE Sansa is a central character. Sansa’s reactions, feelings and development will be center stage during the fallout because this plotline is actually about her in the show. She is a major character so the narrative cares about her and has time for her. So yea, Theon will “profit” character development wise, but he won’t be a complete narrative attention hog the way he was in the book. You can see that as an improvement, if you’d like.
Honestly, this scene is not nearly as problematic as people are making it out to be. You know what rape scene was so much worse in the sense of “totally unnecessary”? That Jaime/Cersei one. Because that one actually fucked with characterization and relationship dynamics. And yet, somehow, people got over that one quickly enough. It certainly did not cause an equivalent ragequit uproar. And I do have to wonder why.
